No, Ideas Do Not Have Any Rights at All…

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Ideas do not have any dignity. Nor do they have a right to exist. Only people have intrinsic dignity. People have a right to exist. Thus I don’t respect beliefs unless they are respectable as in they are warranted and justified by valid and reliable reason and evidence. People deserve respect unless they behave unrespectable. I always strive to attack thinking not people. Furthermore, I don’t force people to believe things, I only try to inspire in myself and others the need for using rational and ethical standards in beliefs and behaviors.

Religion is ideas and ideas have no rights!

Ideas do not equal people…

Demand respect for PEOPLE, not beliefs or ideas!

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

“So you don’t believe in the freedom of speech? We don’t know of beliefs until they are expressed. Expression is protected speech. People make irrational and biased statements all the time. Are we now to have belief police? PS. Am being a bit facetious here, as the point of the post is clear and admirable. However, getting into the game of judging who is “properly” exercising their rights when expressing a belief might not be the best strategy. As it is, speech is somewhat regulated by other laws that forbid “mayhem” with the good example of not being allowed to yell fire in a theater when there is no fire. Or by loitering laws, so a person can’t stand around wherever and claim they have a “right” to be there. Beliefs though? Slippery slope imo. But great post. For instance, I’d be in favor of outlawing anyone accusing another of being a criminal when the person they are accusing has not been indicted and convicted. Being suspected of improprieties has no true implication of their being a criminal, especially under the holding “innocent until proven guilty.” Why should a politician like Trump, the vindictive, petty, empathy-lacking jerk he is, be able to label anyone a criminal, like he did with Hillary Clinton when she had not been proven guilty of anything? I understand some western democracies enforce a “truth in politics” standard during campaigns. Either Canada or Australia I believe. Let me find out and will let you know on this thread. Thanks and have a productive week in all you do Keith. Say Aloha to the kids for me! Just started volunteering as an aide at an elementary in my neighborhood and I’ll tell them you said hello from Florida!” – Challenger 1

My response, “So you don’t believe in the freedom of speech?” That question is a relating to the freedom of a person to express the ideas, not that ideas have a right. And to be clear again, ideas have no right to exist and are not free from challenge or attempt to destroy their credibility so profoundly that they are shamed to even exist as a professed idea people are free to have. 

“Think I was very clear. No one knows about an idea until it is expressed. Expression is speech. In other words, you would have no knowledge of an idea to challenge until it is expressed. I have no problem challenging ideas one finds contrary to their way of thinking. Thanks. Classic chicken or egg debate.  And just to add, isn’t it clear by now that ideas,like them or not will never be stifled by shame. One of the biggest misconceptions naive people like myself had – thinking the expressions of racism, bigotry and prejudice were not a normal anymore, bordering in rare. After all look from where we had come re black white relations, electing a president from the black community. Cough, cough, “wrong.” Never will ingrained prejudices passed down from generation to generation be ashamed into not existing. Hidden maybe, erased, forgotten, eliminated – never. Believe me there are some who still maintain the sun revolves around the earth. Some still believe the moon landing was a hoax and 9/11 a deliberate attack by our government upon our own country. Or that the government introduced crack cocaine into black communities. Or that the homeless are lazy. Or that overweight price are gluttons. Things never die. I do applaud you though for speaking about the fact that we can limit the damage irrational ideas cause to the truth and the noble quest for the truth. Shaming, OK. I’ve advocated for pummeling Trumpeters at the polls in ’18 and ”20. A defeat so big it would drive their sentiments underground. Where they will probably lay dormant until another despite comes along to mine them for self-seeking purposes. If we are going to be binary about things – good will always be counterweighted by evil. Neither will cease to exist. The only variable is how many dies each possess.” – Challenger 1 

My response, Ideas are of Human thinking and they stay relating to human thinking thus by helping each other think we expose the error in the thinking, and by so doing we bring shame in keeping them going. Reason is one tool for this as once one is shown they are being or using unreasonable thinking it can motivate them to stop that thinking. You are arguing your point not just to add words on Facebook but to provide your believed rationale thus motivating others to see it as you do. If you don’t believe me in that then what are you doing commenting at all? We are constantly supporting or objecting to ideas all the time with an often unrealized desire to persuade and this can be by direct promotion of ideas or against them. You are trying to do it with me as I am with you. Ideas themselves have no rights it is the people expressing them that rights are attached and it is the people who we presume to shame in their unreasonably not ideas that have no mind. 

“I do not disagree with you on what you’ve just said. However, as much as I believe in myself and the righteousness of the beliefs I hold, would defer to the medical professionals as to if those who see things differently, whether irrational, unscientific, or totally subjective with no facts whatsoever to support – have no mind. It is a presumption I refuse to make and state openly, when holding no one has the right to effect any manner of judgement upon what I choose to believe in. What a person thinks about others certainly is a human right as you point out. Stating it and expecting others to agree is what you advocate attacking and shaming. Go for it. I do it all the time. But I refrain from blanket statements about the quality of their brains or their thought processes. Wasn’t this the cause of Galileo’s arrest and imprisonment? (Rhetorical, because I know you know what I mean.) Nice discussion though, think we agree on much more than that upon which we disagree.” – Challenger 1   

“Ideas do have a right to exist. All ideas exist, whether you like it or not. The choice of course, is whether you choose to refute it, accept it, or ignore it.” – Challenger 2 

My response, Challenger 2, I wonder if you are thinking this is against the freedom of speech or something?” It is related to the idea of blasphemy laws, not relating to the freedom of speech, as that is about the freedom of a person to express ideas, not that ideas have a right. And to be clear again, ideas have no right to exist and are not free from challenge or attempt to destroy their credibility so profoundly that they are shamed to even exist as a professed idea people are free to have. 

“Yes, ideas exist and have a right to exist. All of them, even the ones you disagree with. That is my point. Declaring that some ideas don’t have a right to exist is a contrived platitude. Ironically, your premise that ideas don’t have a right to exist… isn’t based in reality. It sounds like a wish in any context.” – Challenger 2   

My response, Challenger 2, ideas don’t have rights of any kind.  “rights” a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. “Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory. Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.” ref How can one say ideas are due to this and what else would this mean in relation to ideas if it were true? 

“That is only one definition of right. Your use is incorrect and not in accordance with free speech or free thought. First you must define what you really mean by “ideas have no right to exist.” Ideas of all kinds already exist. They don’t need or beg our permission. For example the KKK has a right to exist and to speak their nonsense. They don’t have a right to incite violence. The ACLU has defended their right do so and then launched a confer protest to drown them out. We cannot say ideas don’t have rights. We must analyze each idea and decide as a society. When you censor free speech, and when good people don’t counter it…evil wins and people become radicalized. The etymology of rights is more complex than your statement accounts for. I also respectfully disagree. Ideas have every right to exist, so do books full of ideas. So do people with different beliefs and ideas.” – Challenger 2     

My response, I did not say censor anything, I addressed “rights” only due to people saying otherwise is a strawman of my post. “Strawman: exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone’s argument, it’s much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.” ref 

“I don’t think it’s a straw man at all. I think you made a blanket statement and I disagree with it. That’s all, we can agree to disagree. All religion has a right to exist, their ideas have a right to exist. What they do with it is another thing. Okie dokie. Have a great day.” – Challenger 2   

My response, You say ideas have rights, well then explain what that means and stating a human right to freedom of speech is not about ideas having rights, they are about people’s rights. What would it mean if ideas had rights, could I not attack them mercilessly, or are they with rights due protection from attack?  No, I do not agree if you mean religion, if you mean religion as a “group of ideas in itself” which has a right to exist. Rather it is people that wish to believe in religious ideas that I agree have the right to exist and upon that do religions have an attributed right to exist. I am not against you disagreeing as it’s your right. 

“No. I said ideas have a right to exist. They do already exist. People have a right to be wrong. People have rights that can be imposed upon. Ideas simply exist, and all ideas Spring from thought. So yes, ideas must be granted the right to exist, and people to speak their minds…not that every idea should be practiced or permitted to be acted upon. If we were smarter, we would learn that to defeat the enemy you must first engage them, understand the enemies ideas and that means listening to an opposite view. Our logic cannot be destroyed by another’s beliefs, but our ignorance will remain unless we hear the hearts and minds of others. Ideas have every right to exist. Again, it’s what we do with those ideas that determines them to be right or wrong, good or evil. It’s not only a right to disagree, as if it is granted…it just IS.” – Challenger2

My response, You say ideas must be granted the right to exist and that means what to our responsibility to these professed “rights” you profess they are due? If they have a right what limit to their protections would they deserve and what consequence should they deserve if not given this believed right? 

“Ideas have never been granted the right to exist. Inventors are usually rule breakers, sometimes a new idea just IS.” – Challenger 2  

My response, You state “Our logic” as in one’s reasoning or do you mean logic in philosophy? If you mean our reasoning, it should always be open to change if found lacking. Or at least, I will say, others may do as they want even if it is unreasonable, but I always want to be open to changing my reasoning upon valid and reliable reason and evidence. 

“I agree. All ideas must be open to scrutiny and have evidence for its validity.” –Challenger 2   

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Animism: Respecting the Living World by Graham Harvey 

“How have human cultures engaged with and thought about animals, plants, rocks, clouds, and other elements in their natural surroundings? Do animals and other natural objects have a spirit or soul? What is their relationship to humans? In this new study, Graham Harvey explores current and past animistic beliefs and practices of Native Americans, Maori, Aboriginal Australians, and eco-pagans. He considers the varieties of animism found in these cultures as well as their shared desire to live respectfully within larger natural communities. Drawing on his extensive casework, Harvey also considers the linguistic, performative, ecological, and activist implications of these different animisms.” ref

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Low Gods “Earth” or Tutelary deity and High Gods “Sky” or Supreme deity

“An Earth goddess is a deification of the Earth. Earth goddesses are often associated with the “chthonic” deities of the underworld. Ki and Ninhursag are Mesopotamian earth goddesses. In Greek mythology, the Earth is personified as Gaia, corresponding to Roman Terra, Indic Prithvi/Bhūmi, etc. traced to an “Earth Mother” complementary to the “Sky Father” in Proto-Indo-European religion. Egyptian mythology exceptionally has a sky goddess and an Earth god.” ref

“A mother goddess is a goddess who represents or is a personification of nature, motherhood, fertility, creation, destruction or who embodies the bounty of the Earth. When equated with the Earth or the natural world, such goddesses are sometimes referred to as Mother Earth or as the Earth Mother. In some religious traditions or movements, Heavenly Mother (also referred to as Mother in Heaven or Sky Mother) is the wife or feminine counterpart of the Sky father or God the Father.” ref

“Any masculine sky god is often also king of the gods, taking the position of patriarch within a pantheon. Such king gods are collectively categorized as “sky father” deities, with a polarity between sky and earth often being expressed by pairing a “sky father” god with an “earth mother” goddess (pairings of a sky mother with an earth father are less frequent). A main sky goddess is often the queen of the gods and may be an air/sky goddess in her own right, though she usually has other functions as well with “sky” not being her main. In antiquity, several sky goddesses in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Near East were called Queen of Heaven. Neopagans often apply it with impunity to sky goddesses from other regions who were never associated with the term historically. The sky often has important religious significance. Many religions, both polytheistic and monotheistic, have deities associated with the sky.” ref

“In comparative mythology, sky father is a term for a recurring concept in polytheistic religions of a sky god who is addressed as a “father”, often the father of a pantheon and is often either a reigning or former King of the Gods. The concept of “sky father” may also be taken to include Sun gods with similar characteristics, such as Ra. The concept is complementary to an “earth mother“. “Sky Father” is a direct translation of the Vedic Dyaus Pita, etymologically descended from the same Proto-Indo-European deity name as the Greek Zeûs Pater and Roman Jupiter and Germanic Týr, Tir or Tiwaz, all of which are reflexes of the same Proto-Indo-European deity’s name, *Dyēus Ph₂tḗr. While there are numerous parallels adduced from outside of Indo-European mythology, there are exceptions (e.g. In Egyptian mythology, Nut is the sky mother and Geb is the earth father).” ref

Tutelary deity

“A tutelary (also tutelar) is a deity or spirit who is a guardian, patron, or protector of a particular place, geographic feature, person, lineage, nation, culture, or occupation. The etymology of “tutelary” expresses the concept of safety and thus of guardianship. In late Greek and Roman religion, one type of tutelary deity, the genius, functions as the personal deity or daimon of an individual from birth to death. Another form of personal tutelary spirit is the familiar spirit of European folklore.” ref

“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Korean shamanism, jangseung and sotdae were placed at the edge of villages to frighten off demons. They were also worshiped as deities. Seonangshin is the patron deity of the village in Korean tradition and was believed to embody the Seonangdang. In Philippine animism, Diwata or Lambana are deities or spirits that inhabit sacred places like mountains and mounds and serve as guardians. Such as: Maria Makiling is the deity who guards Mt. Makiling and Maria Cacao and Maria Sinukuan. In Shinto, the spirits, or kami, which give life to human bodies come from nature and return to it after death. Ancestors are therefore themselves tutelaries to be worshiped. And similarly, Native American beliefs such as Tonás, tutelary animal spirit among the Zapotec and Totems, familial or clan spirits among the Ojibwe, can be animals.” ref

“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Austronesian beliefs such as: Atua (gods and spirits of the Polynesian peoples such as the Māori or the Hawaiians), Hanitu (Bunun of Taiwan‘s term for spirit), Hyang (Kawi, Sundanese, Javanese, and Balinese Supreme Being, in ancient Java and Bali mythology and this spiritual entity, can be either divine or ancestral), Kaitiaki (New Zealand Māori term used for the concept of guardianship, for the sky, the sea, and the land), Kawas (mythology) (divided into 6 groups: gods, ancestors, souls of the living, spirits of living things, spirits of lifeless objects, and ghosts), Tiki (Māori mythology, Tiki is the first man created by either Tūmatauenga or Tāne and represents deified ancestors found in most Polynesian cultures). ” ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref

Mesopotamian Tutelary Deities can be seen as ones related to City-States 

“Historical city-states included Sumerian cities such as Uruk and Ur; Ancient Egyptian city-states, such as Thebes and Memphis; the Phoenician cities (such as Tyre and Sidon); the five Philistine city-states; the Berber city-states of the Garamantes; the city-states of ancient Greece (the poleis such as Athens, Sparta, Thebes, and Corinth); the Roman Republic (which grew from a city-state into a vast empire); the Italian city-states from the Middle Ages to the early modern period, such as Florence, Siena, Ferrara, Milan (which as they grew in power began to dominate neighboring cities) and Genoa and Venice, which became powerful thalassocracies; the Mayan and other cultures of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica (including cities such as Chichen Itza, Tikal, Copán and Monte Albán); the central Asian cities along the Silk Road; the city-states of the Swahili coast; Ragusa; states of the medieval Russian lands such as Novgorod and Pskov; and many others.” ref

“The Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BCE; also known as Protoliterate period) of Mesopotamia, named after the Sumerian city of Uruk, this period saw the emergence of urban life in Mesopotamia and the Sumerian civilization. City-States like Uruk and others had a patron tutelary City Deity along with a Priest-King.” ref

“Chinese folk religion, both past, and present, includes myriad tutelary deities. Exceptional individuals, highly cultivated sages, and prominent ancestors can be deified and honored after death. Lord Guan is the patron of military personnel and police, while Mazu is the patron of fishermen and sailors. Such as Tu Di Gong (Earth Deity) is the tutelary deity of a locality, and each individual locality has its own Earth Deity and Cheng Huang Gong (City God) is the guardian deity of an individual city, worshipped by local officials and locals since imperial times.” ref

“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Hinduism, personal tutelary deities are known as ishta-devata, while family tutelary deities are known as Kuladevata. Gramadevata are guardian deities of villages. Devas can also be seen as tutelary. Shiva is the patron of yogis and renunciants. City goddesses include: Mumbadevi (Mumbai), Sachchika (Osian); Kuladevis include: Ambika (Porwad), and Mahalakshmi. In NorthEast India Meitei mythology and religion (Sanamahism) of Manipur, there are various types of tutelary deities, among which Lam Lais are the most predominant ones. Tibetan Buddhism has Yidam as a tutelary deity. Dakini is the patron of those who seek knowledge.” ref

“A tutelary (also tutelar) The Greeks also thought deities guarded specific places: for instance, Athena was the patron goddess of the city of Athens. Socrates spoke of hearing the voice of his personal spirit or daimonion:

You have often heard me speak of an oracle or sign which comes to me … . This sign I have had ever since I was a child. The sign is a voice which comes to me and always forbids me to do something which I am going to do, but never commands me to do anything, and this is what stands in the way of my being a politician.” ref

“Tutelary deities who guard and preserve a place or a person are fundamental to ancient Roman religion. The tutelary deity of a man was his Genius, that of a woman her Juno. In the Imperial era, the Genius of the Emperor was a focus of Imperial cult. An emperor might also adopt a major deity as his personal patron or tutelary, as Augustus did Apollo. Precedents for claiming the personal protection of a deity were established in the Republican era, when for instance the Roman dictator Sulla advertised the goddess Victory as his tutelary by holding public games (ludi) in her honor.” ref

“Each town or city had one or more tutelary deities, whose protection was considered particularly vital in time of war and siege. Rome itself was protected by a goddess whose name was to be kept ritually secret on pain of death (for a supposed case, see Quintus Valerius Soranus). The Capitoline Triad of Juno, Jupiter, and Minerva were also tutelaries of Rome. The Italic towns had their own tutelary deities. Juno often had this function, as at the Latin town of Lanuvium and the Etruscan city of Veii, and was often housed in an especially grand temple on the arx (citadel) or other prominent or central location. The tutelary deity of Praeneste was Fortuna, whose oracle was renowned.” ref

“The Roman ritual of evocatio was premised on the belief that a town could be made vulnerable to military defeat if the power of its tutelary deity were diverted outside the city, perhaps by the offer of superior cult at Rome. The depiction of some goddesses such as the Magna Mater (Great Mother, or Cybele) as “tower-crowned” represents their capacity to preserve the city. A town in the provinces might adopt a deity from within the Roman religious sphere to serve as its guardian, or syncretize its own tutelary with such; for instance, a community within the civitas of the Remi in Gaul adopted Apollo as its tutelary, and at the capital of the Remi (present-day Rheims), the tutelary was Mars Camulus.” ref 

Household deity (a kind of or related to a Tutelary deity)

“A household deity is a deity or spirit that protects the home, looking after the entire household or certain key members. It has been a common belief in paganism as well as in folklore across many parts of the world. Household deities fit into two types; firstly, a specific deity – typically a goddess – often referred to as a hearth goddess or domestic goddess who is associated with the home and hearth, such as the ancient Greek Hestia.” ref

“The second type of household deities are those that are not one singular deity, but a type, or species of animistic deity, who usually have lesser powers than major deities. This type was common in the religions of antiquity, such as the Lares of ancient Roman religion, the Gashin of Korean shamanism, and Cofgodas of Anglo-Saxon paganism. These survived Christianisation as fairy-like creatures existing in folklore, such as the Anglo-Scottish Brownie and Slavic Domovoy.” ref

“Household deities were usually worshipped not in temples but in the home, where they would be represented by small idols (such as the teraphim of the Bible, often translated as “household gods” in Genesis 31:19 for example), amulets, paintings, or reliefs. They could also be found on domestic objects, such as cosmetic articles in the case of Tawaret. The more prosperous houses might have a small shrine to the household god(s); the lararium served this purpose in the case of the Romans. The gods would be treated as members of the family and invited to join in meals, or be given offerings of food and drink.” ref

“In many religions, both ancient and modern, a god would preside over the home. Certain species, or types, of household deities, existed. An example of this was the Roman Lares. Many European cultures retained house spirits into the modern period. Some examples of these include:

• Brownie (Scotland and England) or Hob (England) / Kobold (Germany) / Goblin / Hobgoblin
• Domovoy (Slavic)
• Nisse (Norwegian or Danish) / Tomte (Swedish) / Tonttu (Finnish)
• Húsvættir (Norse)” ref

“Although the cosmic status of household deities was not as lofty as that of the Twelve Olympians or the Aesir, they were also jealous of their dignity and also had to be appeased with shrines and offerings, however humble. Because of their immediacy they had arguably more influence on the day-to-day affairs of men than the remote gods did. Vestiges of their worship persisted long after Christianity and other major religions extirpated nearly every trace of the major pagan pantheons. Elements of the practice can be seen even today, with Christian accretions, where statues to various saints (such as St. Francis) protect gardens and grottos. Even the gargoyles found on older churches, could be viewed as guardians partitioning a sacred space.” ref

“For centuries, Christianity fought a mop-up war against these lingering minor pagan deities, but they proved tenacious. For example, Martin Luther‘s Tischreden have numerous – quite serious – references to dealing with kobolds. Eventually, rationalism and the Industrial Revolution threatened to erase most of these minor deities, until the advent of romantic nationalism rehabilitated them and embellished them into objects of literary curiosity in the 19th century. Since the 20th century this literature has been mined for characters for role-playing games, video games, and other fantasy personae, not infrequently invested with invented traits and hierarchies somewhat different from their mythological and folkloric roots.” ref

“In contradistinction to both Herbert Spencer and Edward Burnett Tylor, who defended theories of animistic origins of ancestor worship, Émile Durkheim saw its origin in totemism. In reality, this distinction is somewhat academic, since totemism may be regarded as a particularized manifestation of animism, and something of a synthesis of the two positions was attempted by Sigmund Freud. In Freud’s Totem and Taboo, both totem and taboo are outward expressions or manifestations of the same psychological tendency, a concept which is complementary to, or which rather reconciles, the apparent conflict. Freud preferred to emphasize the psychoanalytic implications of the reification of metaphysical forces, but with particular emphasis on its familial nature. This emphasis underscores, rather than weakens, the ancestral component.” ref

“William Edward Hearn, a noted classicist, and jurist, traced the origin of domestic deities from the earliest stages as an expression of animism, a belief system thought to have existed also in the neolithic, and the forerunner of Indo-European religion. In his analysis of the Indo-European household, in Chapter II “The House Spirit”, Section 1, he states:

The belief which guided the conduct of our forefathers was … the spirit rule of dead ancestors.” ref

“In Section 2 he proceeds to elaborate:

It is thus certain that the worship of deceased ancestors is a vera causa, and not a mere hypothesis. …

In the other European nations, the Slavs, the Teutons, and the Kelts, the House Spirit appears with no less distinctness. … [T]he existence of that worship does not admit of doubt. … The House Spirits had a multitude of other names which it is needless here to enumerate, but all of which are more or less expressive of their friendly relations with man. … In [England] … [h]e is the Brownie. … In Scotland this same Brownie is well known. He is usually described as attached to particular families, with whom he has been known to reside for centuries, threshing the corn, cleaning the house, and performing similar household tasks. His favorite gratification was milk and honey.” ref

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

Damien Marie AtHope (Said as “At” “Hope”)/(Autodidact Polymath but not good at math):

Axiological Atheist, Anti-theist, Anti-religionist, Secular Humanist, Rationalist, Writer, Artist, Jeweler, Poet, “autodidact” Philosopher, schooled in Psychology, and “autodidact” Armchair Archaeology/Anthropology/Pre-Historian (Knowledgeable in the range of: 1 million to 5,000/4,000 years ago). I am an anarchist socialist politically. Reasons for or Types of Atheism

My Website, My Blog, & Short-writing or Quotes, My YouTube, Twitter: @AthopeMarie, and My Email: damien.marie.athope@gmail.com