A Challenge to Christian use of Torture Devices?

A Challenge to this Meme

“I’ve read publication recently where scientists claim a big part of it is a myth.” – Challenger

My response, Please post a blog on that is you have a credible source.

“Here is my source, “https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0La5h_fmGXQ” and sorry for the foreign language but It’s enough accurate analysis.” – Challenger

*Another commenter – “I think we can all agree that while not all the devices may be factual, the fact that torture was used widely can’t be argued.”

“One point in Video is that devices above are invented outside religion and are used mostly outside.” – Challenger

My response, That’s not a reliable source, please find something better or I will not be able to assess if it is even reasonable to consider agreeing with you.

“Ok, let’s start from the beginning: what is a reliable proof of claims on your picture?” – Challenger

*Another commenter – “Damien Marie AtHope, is correct that one YouTube video isn’t proof against what historians have been talking about for years, are there any papers in a scientific study saying this.”

“1) responding to “another commenter” the video has links inside. the picture above has no links. 2) I was trying to say that the picture is very inaccurate but Damien Marie Athope actually answered like “prove I’m wrong”. that mostly sounds like a religion. It’s a bit sad.” – Challenger

My response, I said to provide the support for your claims, which was that scientists say a big part of it is a myth you have not done so, and it is you that is the holder of the burden of proof required if you want us to be persuaded by your claim.

My response, As for my support here is a link on the Christian Inquisition. “The Inquisition was a powerful office set up within the Catholic Church to root out and punish heresy throughout Europe and the Americas. Beginning in the 12th century and continuing for hundreds of years, the Inquisition is infamous for the severity of its tortures and its persecution of Jews and Muslims. Its worst manifestation was in Spain, where the Spanish Inquisition was a dominant force for more than 200 years, resulting in some 32,000 executions.” https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition

“Damien Marie Athope, as I said before, Ok! let’s suppose I have no proof. How does it prove the picture? Yep! it doesn’t. If you want, I’ll rewrite the new comment “What is it to prove of picture claims” and delete this thread. What will be changed?? It’s a good link you provide on the Inquisition but it doesn’t prove the picture. The Idea of the picture is wider then linked text. By the way, the video talks similar ideas as the linked text.”

My response, My posted link to the Inquisition is directly related to the picture posted and forced conversion was a thing Christians did often or they attacked believed heretics.

Forced Conversion?

My response, “When Constantine I converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already under the reign of Constantine I, Christian heretics had been persecuted; beginning in the late 4th century, the ancient pagan religions were also actively suppressed. In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted religion into one capable of persecution and sometimes eager to persecute. On 27 February 380, together with Gratian and Valentinian II, Theodosius I issued the decree Cunctos populos, the so-called Edict of Thessalonica, recorded in the Codex Theodosianus xvi.1.2. This declared Trinitarian Nicene Christianity to be the only legitimate imperial religion and the only one entitled to call itself Catholic. Other Christians he described as “foolish madmen”. He also ended official state support for the traditional polytheist religions and customs. The Codex Theodosianus (Eng. Theodosian Code) was a compilation of the laws of the Roman Empire under the Christian emperors since 312. A commission was established by Theodosius II and his co-emperor Valentinian III on 26 March 429 and the compilation was published by a constitution of 15 February 438. It went into force in the eastern and western parts of the empire on 1 January 439. It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans. The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative (Codex Theodosianus XVI 1.2.). Forced conversions of Jews were carried out with the support of rulers during Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages in Gaul, the Iberian peninsula and in the Byzantine empire.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

My response, “But to be specific the picture relates to Medieval Forced conversion During the Saxon Wars, Charlemagne, King of the Franks, forcibly converted the Saxons from their native Germanic paganism by way of warfare, and law upon conquest. Examples are the Massacre of Verden in 782, when Charlemagne reportedly had 4,500 captive Saxons massacred for rebelling, and the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae, a law imposed on conquered Saxons in 785, after another rebellion and destruction of churches and killing of missionary priests and monks, that prescribed death to those who refused to convert to Christianity. The forced conversion that occurred after the seventh century generally took place during riots and massacres carried out by mobs and clergy without the support of the rulers. In contrast, royal persecutions of Jews from the late eleventh century onward generally took the form of expulsions, with some exceptions, such as conversions of Jews in southern Italy of the 13th century, which were carried out by Dominican Inquisitors but instigated by King Charles II of Naples. Jews were forced to convert to Christianity by the Crusaders in Lorraine, on the Lower Rhine, in Bavaria and Bohemia, in Mainz and in Worms (see Rhineland massacres, Worms massacre (1096)). Pope Innocent III pronounced in 1201 that if one agreed to be baptized to avoid torture and intimidation, one nevertheless could be compelled to outwardly observe Christianity: [T]hose who are immersed even though reluctant, do belong to ecclesiastical jurisdiction at least by reason of the sacrament, and might therefore be reasonably compelled to observe the rules of the Christian Faith. It is, to be sure, contrary to the Christian Faith that anyone who is unwilling and wholly opposed to it should be compelled to adopt and observe Christianity. For this reason a valid distinction is made by some between kinds of unwilling ones and kinds of compelled ones. Thus one who is drawn to Christianity by violence, through fear and through torture, and receives the sacrament of Baptism in order to avoid loss, he (like one who comes to Baptism in dissimulation) does receive the impress of Christianity, and may be forced to observe the Christian Faith as one who expressed a conditional willingness though, absolutely speaking, he was unwilling. During the Northern Crusades against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northern Europe, forced conversions were a widely used tactic, which received papal sanction. These tactics were first adopted during the Wendish Crusade, but became more widespread during the Livonian Crusade and Prussian Crusade, in which tactics included the killing of hostages, massacre, and the devastation of the lands of tribes that had not yet submitted. Most of the populations of these regions were converted only after the repeated rebellion of native populations that did not want to accept Christianity even after initial forced conversion; in Old Prussia, the tactics employed in the initial conquest and subsequent conversion of the territory resulted in the death of most of the native population, whose language consequently became extinct.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

My response, “After the end of the Islamic control of Spain, Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. In Portugal, following an order for their expulsion in 1496, only a handful were allowed to leave and the rest were forced to convert. Muslims were expelled from Portugal in 1497, and they were gradually forced to convert in the constituent kingdoms of Spain. The forced conversion of Muslims was implemented in the Crown of Castile from 1500–02 and in the Crown of Aragon in the 1520s. After the conversions, the so-called “New Christians” were those inhabitants (Sephardic Jews or Mudéjar Muslims) who were baptized under coercion and in the face of execution, becoming forced converts from Islam (Moriscos, Conversos and “secret Moors”) or from Judaism (Conversos, Crypto-Jews and Marranos). After the forced conversion, when all former Muslims and Jews had ostensibly become Catholic, the Spanish Inquisition targeted primarily forced converts from Judaism and Islam, who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion or having fallen back into it. Jewish conversos still resided in Spain and often practiced Judaism secretly and were suspected by the “Old Christians” of being Crypto-Jews. The Spanish Inquisition generated much wealth and income for the church and individual inquisitors by confiscating the property of the persecuted. The end of Al-Andalus and the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews from the Iberian Peninsula went hand in hand with the increase of Spanish and Portuguese influence in the world, as exemplified in the Christian conquest of the Americas and their aboriginal Indian population. The Ottoman Empire and Morocco absorbed most of the Jewish and Muslim refugees, although a large majority remained as Conversos.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

My response, “Upon converting to Christianity in the 10th century, Vladimir the Great, the ruler of Kievan Rus’, ordered Kiev’s citizens to undergo a mass baptism in the Dnieper river. In the 13th century, the pagan populations of the Baltics faced campaigns of forcible conversion by crusading knight corps such as the Livonian Brothers of the Sword and the Teutonic Order, which often meant simply dispossessing these populations of their lands and property. After Ivan the Terrible’s conquest of the Khanate of Kazan, the Muslim population faced slaughter, expulsion, forced resettlement, and conversion to Christianity.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

My response, “In the middle ages, torture was used to extract information, force confessions, punish suspects, frighten opponents, and satisfy personal hatred. Historically, ancient Greeks and Romans used torture for interrogation. Until the second century AD, torture was used only on slaves. A slave’s testimony was admissible only if extracted by torture. The word ‘torture’ comes from the French torture, originating in the Late Latin tortura and ultimately deriving the past participle of torquere meaning ‘to twist’. Many characteristically Christian tortures rely on a twisting of the limbs, twisting ligatures, or turning screw mechanisms as the Church discouraged the shedding of blood.” http://www.medievalwarfare.info/torture.htm

My response, “Torture was used almost exclusively for the crime of treason. In civil society, this meant in practice that it was generally restricted to monarchs and the highest nobles. In the Church, matters were different. The Church taught that any deviation from orthodoxy amounted to lèse majesté against God, and therefore treason again the King of Kings. This meant that in contrast to civil society, treason and therefore torture was common in the Church. It was not only the Inquisition that practiced torture but it is the Inquisition that has lodged in the popular mind as masters of the trade. As many historians have noted, the most vicious procedures in Medieval times were inflicted on devout Christians by even more devout Christians. Dominicans gained a reputation as the most fearsomely innovative torturers. Torture had long been practiced by bishops, but it was formally authorized for the Medieval Inquisition in 1252. It should have ended in 1816 when a papal bull forbade its use, but secret torture continued in the Papal States until they were seized by French Forces in the 1870s.” http://www.medievalwarfare.info/torture.htm

“Damien Marie AtHope, good big texting but my problem is still logic. Am I correct that your point is “Christians invented torture devices on the picture and begun using it”?” – Challenger

My response, I don’t get what you mean by a problem with logic? I have provided you with sources and that such things were used to not just harm the individual but to put fear into the general people where they where used that helped forced conversions and persuaded adherence of the Christian religion. Did you read what it said in the picture? It states, “Medevil Christain torture devices, where would Christianity be without these.” It does not claim that they were created by the Church but that they were used by the Christain Church and without doing such torture as is documented especially in the Spanish Inquisition. I posted that and that link alone already supports the thinking of the picture. Christians used torture devices that were already in use and may have made there own to torture, either way, it makes no difference as that is not the point of the picture nor what it is claiming. Even the guillotine some may doubt is reasonable as it is known that a Gibbet which was an early guillotine was owned by the Archbishop of York: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Gibbet

My response, Here is a link for the Judas Chair, used for Christian torture. https://laurenhillard.blogspot.com/2013/10/medievaltorturemuseum.html?fbclid=IwAR0WEWS0ms2EqUa07cFYogGWlsW1BinAfkFgssIqDJfITU_TjBJWH0lGP7s

My response, Another torture device from the Spanish Inquisition was the Judas cradle which is sometimes also called the Judas Chair. https://www.planetdeadly.com/human/medieval-torture-devices

My response, Here is a link for the Rack, used for Christian torture. “While the torture instruments used in medieval times were not confined to the Inquisition, torture devices were nonetheless used by Inquisition authorities. Some of the most popular torture instruments that were used during medieval times included The Judas Cradle, Brazen Bull, Scold’s Bridle, Chair of Torture, and others. One of the most popular such torture devices was called Torture Rack. The Torture Rack was a sophisticated device that was used to dislocate the bones of a person and eventually tear the person’s limbs apart.” http://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-torture-devices/torture-rack/?fbclid=IwAR3xD6Rgv2nfk3eLxrtCk36ZEr3Xk5U423inrNm8TbCdHhwtLYV8-FamyjY

My response, Here is a link for the Coffin, used for Christian torture. “Very serious crimes, such as blasphemy, were punished by death inside the coffin where the victim was to be kept inside under the sun with animals eating his or her flesh.” https://medievality.com/coffin-torture/

My response, Here is a link for the Wooden Horse torture device also called the “Spanish Horse” which was used during Inquisition. http://torturemuseum.net/en/the-spanish-horse/https://www.ranker.com/list/execution-spanish-inquisition/katia-kleyman

My response, Here is a link for the Neck torture device, also called the Neck brace, used for Christian torture. https://notesfromcamelidcountry.net/2013/03/19/torture-in-paradise-the-spanish-inquisition-comes-to-cartagena/

Medieval Inquisition?

My response, “The Inquisition has its origins in the early organized persecution of non-Catholic Christian religions in Europe.” https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition

My response, “The Medieval Inquisition was a series of Inquisitions (Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184–1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). The Medieval Inquisition was established in response to movements considered apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular, Catharism and Waldensians in Southern France and Northern Italy. These were the first inquisition movements of many that would follow. French historian Jean-Baptiste Guiraud (1866–1953) defined Medieval Inquisition as “… a system of repressive means, some of temporal and some others of spiritual kind, concurrently issued by ecclesiastical and civil authorities in order to protect religious orthodoxy and social order, both threatened by theological and social doctrines of heresy”.There were many different types of inquisitions depending on the location and methods; historians have generally classified them into the episcopal inquisition and the papal inquisition. In the Middle Ages, the Inquisition’s main focus was to eradicate new Christain sects. Cathars who were slow to repent suffered imprisonment and, often, the loss of property. Others who altogether refused to repent were burned. One reason for Pope Gregory IX’s creation of the Inquisition was to bring order and legality to the process of dealing with heresy, since there had been tendencies by mobs of townspeople to burn alleged heretics without much of a trial. The complaints of the two main preaching orders of the period, the Dominicans and the Franciscans, against the moral corruption of the Church, to some extent echoed those of the heretical movements, but they were doctrinally conventional, and were enlisted by Pope Innocent III in the fight against heresy. As a result, many Franciscans and Dominicans became inquisitors. For example, Robert le Bougre, the “Hammer of Heretics” (Malleus Haereticorum), was a Dominican friar who became an inquisitor known for his cruelty and violence. Throughout the Inquisition’s history, it was rivaled by local ecclesiastical and secular jurisdictions. No matter how determined, no pope succeeded in establishing complete control over the prosecution of heresy. Medieval kings, princes, bishops, and civil authorities all had a role in prosecuting heresy, except where they individually opposed the practice. The practice reached its apex in the second half of the 13th century. During this period, the tribunals were almost entirely free from any authority, including that of the pope. Therefore, it was almost impossible to eradicate abuse.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition

My response, “In southern Europe, Church-run courts existed in the kingdom of Aragon during the medieval period, but not elsewhere in the Iberian peninsula or some other kingdoms, including England. In Scandinavian kingdoms it had hardly any impact. At the beginning of the fourteenth century, two other movements attracted the attention of the Inquisition, the Knights Templar and the Beguines. It is not clear if the process against the Templars was initiated by the Inquisition on the basis of suspected heresy or if the Inquisition itself was exploited by the king of France, Philip the Fair, who wanted the knights’ wealth. In the search for Templars, two inquisitors were also sent to the British Isles. This is the only instance of inquisitorial action in the British Isles and not a successful one, mainly because the inquisitors could not instigate false confessions through torture, as its use was forbidden by common law. The Beguines were mainly a women’s movement, recognized by the Church since their foundation in the thirteenth century as mystics. However, with the Council of Vienne in the fourteenth century, they were proclaimed heretics and persecuted, with large numbers being burned at the stake in Narbonne, Toulouse and other French cities. They were also attacked in Germany, the first attempt of the Inquisition to operate in the area. According to historian Thomas Madden: The Inquisition was not born out of a desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made heresy a capital offense. In the early Middle Ages, people accused of heresy were judged by the local lord, many of whom lacked theological training. Madden claims that “The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by non-church lords or mob rule” Madden argues that while medieval non-church leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for some charged heretics to escape death and return to the community.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition

My response, “Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular, the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one’s religion, principles or cause, and blasphemy, which is an impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

“Damien Marie Athope ???? thanx, I’ll have to read it and compare for some time.” – Challenger

Marquis Amon “One of the key reasons for torture, in general, was to extract confessions. In light of Maddens argument that the inquisitions weren’t intended to crush or oppress diversity, I think it would be ultimate mute that the heavy-handed theocracy would have resulted in anything different. I think that yes, local lords save lives through incompetence, but I would hardly say that’s good. When you look at torture from the perspective of purpose is to break the will of an individual. Whether for state reasons like treason or the common populace to force admissions to crimes. In addition to that, torture instills fear in the masses. Some methodologies were more brutal than execution…The Coffin for example. There was also a method of weight used to raise and lower a person’s tied body causing injury upon impact with the ground. Torture even while physical has psychological purposes which are coercion as mentioned. A means of control. Some times torture began as “light” and progressed. Anything to get what was needed. You will already guilty of the crimes you were accused of(no trial) Torture wasn’t a punishment, think of it as a legal method like an interrogation to get information. Some times a confession from torture could get one some “leniency”…Yeah, they were a little less severe sometimes with their punishments… When I called the local lords incompetent, I only mean to say they were the extensions of the church’s will to maintain order. Given their lack of theological knowledge, they weren’t as brutal, it is great that there were some less insane people in charge at that time though 😉 Regardless, torture in the inquisitions was the fundamental reason of Christianity’s success. Why am I so blasphemous? I don’t want to live through an inquisition…” 1) https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/spanish-inquisition3.htm?fbclid=IwAR0XQQwTIOTaEL56OrrkvsnOU1XT3ZOCVntYOIfu5AQiT2updtU1zYg7hm8 2) https://www.history.com/topics/religion/inquisition?fbclid=IwAR15J6xJ6JAtB9tUF5c6CitCmgIcTpqx6JmiWpkFjVCSja5tYFaHDvwHCN8

Marquis Amon “While this does not involve the Inquisition it does pertain to the topic of Christianity and torture. Since it is coming up, I figured to add the point since I passingly referenced it above.” https://www.businessinsider.com/guy-fawkes-signature-before-and-after-he-was-tortured-2015-11?fbclid=IwAR22MS5LmQBMQbK-yOJSMwPerRd75anblVUd9kc29caj2SAUvX_3obduHKQ “And for modern Christian extremists, torture is prohibited by both NATO and the Geneva convention. Torture is bad…”

My response, As it should be.

Marquis Amon “Do you remember George W, Bush’s response to the question if we use torture? “If they have information, we will get it from them.” While that literally doesn’t answer the question, it clearly states the methodology used mat very well be such. A lack of transparency is frightening.”

“Damien Marie Athope the idea the church was uniquely malicious and brutal is largely fiction. The idea is a strange mixture of antitheistic myth, general ignorance of history, logically fallacious overgeneralization and exaggeration and a liberal dose of presentism.” – Challenger 2

My response, I never said it was limited to the Church and by Church, I believe you mean the Catholic Church Correct?

“No churches in general. https://www.medievalists.net/2016/03/why-medieval-torture-devices-are-not-medieval/?fbclid=IwAR2Ii8PBlpnMgU82ZqTLkc1qK-bQACnm95sWWNSeGxCWmZ0e2MoS0j49-QU” – Challenger 2

My response, “Inquisition, a judicial procedure and later an institution that was established by the papacy and, sometimes, by non-Church governments to combat heresy. In 1252 Pope Innocent IV licensed inquisitors to allow obdurate heretics to be tortured by lay henchmen. It is difficult to determine how common this practice was in the 13th century, but the inquisition certainly acquiesced in the use of torture in the trial of the Knights Templar, a military-religious order, in 1307. Persecution by the inquisition also contributed to the collapse of Catharism, a dualist heresy that had great influence in southern France and northern Italy, by about 1325; although established to defeat that heresy, the inquisition was assisted by the pastoral work of the mendicant orders in its triumph over the Cathars. The inquisition declined in importance in the late Middle Ages, though it continued to try cases of heresy—e.g., the Waldenses, the Spiritual Franciscans, and the alleged heresy of the Free Spirit, a supposed sect of mystics who advocated antinomianism—and cases of sorcery. The most vigorous dissenting movements of the 15th century, Lollardy in England and Hussitism in Bohemia, were not subject to its jurisdiction.” https://www.britannica.com/topic/inquisition

My response, Looks like “in 1252 Pope Innocent IV licensed inquisitors to allow obdurate heretics to be tortured by lay henchmen.” according to Britannica so yes torture was attached to some Church it would seem..

My response, “Spanish Inquisition, (1478–1834), judicial institution ostensibly established to combat heresy in Spain. In practice, the Spanish Inquisition served to consolidate power in the monarchy of the newly unified Spanish kingdom, but it achieved that end through infamously brutal methods. The grand inquisitor acted as the head of the Inquisition in Spain. The ecclesiastical jurisdiction that he had received from the Vatican empowered him to name deputies and hear appeals. In deciding appeals, the grand inquisitor was assisted by a council of five members and by consultors. All those offices were filled by agreement between the government and the grand inquisitor. The council, especially after its reorganization during the reign of Philip II (1556–98), put the effective control of the institution more and more into the hands of the civil power. After the papacy of Clement VII (1523–34), priests and bishops were at times judged by the Inquisition. In procedure the Spanish Inquisition was much like the medieval inquisition. The first grand inquisitor in Spain was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada; his name became synonymous with the brutality and fanaticism associated with the Inquisition. Torquemada used torture and confiscation to terrorize his victims, and his methods were the product of a time when judicial procedure was cruel by design.” https://www.britannica.com/topic/Spanish-Inquisition

My response, So the Spanish Inquisition, 1478–1834, too also seems to hint at torture which was attached to some Church people or church sects or individuals with some church authority.

“I am quite familiar with the Spanish inquisition. In fact, I have the leading work on it in my personal library. Harold Kamen’s work. https://www.amazon.ca/Spanish-Inquisition-Historical-Revision/dp/0300078803?fbclid=IwAR2-7ewFyNX9o27qT19dZh9x2wjoc04JV-YSqi-H8uXa6AP1edFbecvDe2A“ – Challenger 2

My response, So the first point I made from information listed in britannica stating in 1252 Pope Innocent IV licensed inquisitors heretics to be tortured and am I correct you are not contesting is the Catholic church connected to torture? And are you saying the information listed in britannica that I have posted that stated the first grand inquisitor in Spain was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada used torture to terrorize his victims is in error? So I am sure of what you are claiming.

My response, “During the ten years in which the Dominican friar was in charge of the Court of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, until the order of expulsion of the Jews in 1492, there appeared to be more than three thousand executions and a number of times higher incarcerations, confiscations, torture, and public degradation.” https://www.nationalgeographic.com.es/historia/tomas-torquemada-gran-inquisidor_14689

My response, Would you say the information listed in National Geographic that I have posted that stated Tomás de Torquemada used torture to is in error? I want to be sure of what you wish to claim.

My response, Catholic Answers a Church Bias source still seems to eludes to torture (inhuman cruelty of Torquemada) only saying figures are exaggerated and outright states about 2000 people were burnt to deaths, “As papal representative and the highest official of the inquisitorial court, Torquemada directed the entire business of the Inquisition in Spain, was empowered to delegate his inquisitorial faculties to other inquisitors of his own choosing, who remained accountable to him, and settled the appeals made to the Holy See. Much has been written of the inhuman cruelty of Torquemada. Llorente computes that during Torquemada’s office (1483-98) 8800 suffered death by fire and 96,504 were punished in other ways (Histoire de l’Inquisition, IV, 252). These figures are highly exaggerated, as had been conclusively proved by Hefele (Cardinal Ximenes, ch. xviii), Gams (Kirchengeschichte von Spanien, III, II, 68-76), and many others. Even the Jewish historian Graetz contents himself with stating that “under the first Inquisitor Torquemada, in the course of fourteen years (1485-1498) at least 2000 Jews were burnt as impenitent sinners” (“History of the Jews”, Philadelphia, 1897, IV, 356). Most historians hold with the Protestant Peschel (Das Zeitalter der Entdeckungen, Stuttgart, 1877, pp. 119 sq.) that the number of persons burnt from 1481 to 1504, when Isabella died, was about 2000.” https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/tomas-de-torquemada

“Some of these things were not used in torture…they were invented later.” – Challenger 2

My response, Post a credible source on which torture device you are contesting, please.

“Damien Marie AtHope There are several that are dubious. And I posted something. https://www.livescience.com/11338-medieval-torture-10-biggest-myths.html?fbclid=IwAR0p80cuDm2w1txKL8b0R4McyR51WH4sgfVd0v3EyE0N1eIPu6j8spyFaJI“ – Challenger 2

My response, No, that is not true you have not debunked one listed that I see. It is wrong on the rack which was first used in antiquity and it is unclear exactly from which civilization it originated, though some of the earliest examples are from Greece. The Greeks may have first used the rack as a means of torturing slaves and non-citizens, and later in special cases, as in 356 BC, when it was applied to gain a confession from Herostratus, who was later executed for burning down the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_(torture)

“Wiki is not a great source. We all love gore and drama. And seldom do we ask whether our beliefs are accurate. 1) https://www.ranker.com/list/myths-about-historical-torture-that-arent-true/genevieve-carlton?fbclid=IwAR38TEnPlcsDfOpJhJ6SaY3uZF5s7NvUZq4lEiFHFdVnBvzh54fwj-9uEYY 2) https://www.medievalists.net/2016/03/why-medieval-torture-devices-are-not-medieval/?fbclid=IwAR1Tv8Fyt2hgJMqPsDilzl-r7UXqSPLao_eAN4eaSLQDhkxVfT3iSHwF_bA“ – Challenger 2

My response, From your own offered ranker source, “The rack really did exist, but it was invented in the ancient period, not by medieval Europeans. The device was probably uncommon in the medieval era. Historians have found just one reference to the existence of a rack during the Middle Ages: the Tower of London in 1447. If medieval England possessed just one rack, it likely wasn’t the main form of torture during the era.” https://www.ranker.com/list/myths-about-historical-torture-that-arent-true/genevieve-carlton?fbclid=IwAR38TEnPlcsDfOpJhJ6SaY3uZF5s7NvUZq4lEiFHFdVnBvzh54fwj-9uEYY

My response, So you are wrong that it was not used it just may have not been common and that is different.

“You are missing the point. Hollywood invented iron maidens and the wooden horse and the Spanish chair are a myth. Apparently most people are impressed by fancy contraptions… a bucket of water and a damp cloth is sufficient. There were plenty of other torture devices, each with a clever name, and allegedly dating back to medieval times. There was the “Pear of Anguish,” a steel device that was supposed to be inserted into the body (I’ll let you guess where), and spread like a speculum in order to destroy a person from the inside out. There was also the “Spanish Chair,” made of spikes and used as a seat for hapless heretics while they had their feet boiled – kind of like a spa treatment, but not as relaxing. These devices are all terrible, to be sure, but they also have one other thing in common. In essence, they are myths. In fact, Iron Maidens didn’t even exist in medieval times, and there is no evidence of an Iron Maiden ever being used for anything but scaring the pants off of museum patrons in more recent centuries. Ditto for the Pear of Anguish, the Spanish Chair, and many other alleged medieval torture devices.” http://professorbuzzkill.com/medieval-torture-devices/?fbclid=IwAR2fon5kgtnE5qijpnDlmx33X8ogpO98h2K0bzmNaO47BCz1k62QPpMacWQ” – Challenger 2

My response, “Pear of Anguish,” which is not depicted in the meme so it is you that seems to be missing the point as you made a claim that was less than true and now is pointing to a device not even listed.

“I am not missing the point. Religion bad atheism good. Have a snickers. The point stands-many torture devices are myths that Hollywood popularized. Period. The use of such memes is a form of useful propaganda it is crude and fails to reflect history accurately. But it has punch if you hate religion. Damien Marie AtHope but the spanish chair and wooden rail are… and I have three dollar Bill’s for you on those. I appreciate your attempt to deflect by arguing that only those depicted count. The meme comes in many forms and variations…and my point stands…people have extremely inaccurate ideas about history. Unfortunately, many atheists are repeat offenders and argue themselves blue to hold on to their misperceptions. It is positively religious of us secularists.” – Challenger 2

My response, You said the “wooden rail” or torture bench (with a sharp inverted V-shaped ridge running through its length, on which the suspect was dropped astride with his or her legs apart) was only a myth and not any more real ever than a three dollar bill? And, do you mean it was never used in any Inquisition? Would that include the Maltese Inquisition from 1574 to 1798? http://students.um.edu.mt/rfen0007/Maltese%20Culture.pdf

My response, “Dr Giulio Cumbo, was appointed to the bench in 1698, besides his world-record for longevity in judicial service, Cumbo put in valiant efforts to achieve fame with his sadism resorted to flogging and assorted torture unsparingly to extract confessions, which he then relied on to condemn suspects to death. Cumbo mostly presided over the criminal court, but occasionally took a break in between one torment here and a gallows there, to administer his peculiar brand of justice in the civil court. The torture bench (with a sharp inverted V-shaped ridge running through its length, on which the suspect was dropped astride with his or her legs apart) in Malta lost its original Italian name of cavalletto squarciapalle and became popularly known as iz-ziemel ta’ Cumbo.” (this quote comes from a PDF file) that appears to be from the Malta.goverment.
www.judiciarymalta.gov.mt/file.aspx?f=421

My response, Also known as the Judas Chair, the Chair of Torture was a terrible device of the Middle Ages. It was used until the late 1800’s in Europe. https://medievality.com/chair-of-torture/

“The Judas chair is a myth, each article I posted addresses it…as bull shit.” – Challenger 2

My response, You seem to make statements without caring if they are fully accurate as the Judas chair is not mentioned here: https://www.ranker.com/list/myths-about-historical-torture-that-arent-true/genevieve-carlton?fbclid=IwAR1X-NaL7mAqrSQ6WKwAeWrDn2oM08Y7dS8DtedKtXLsJqemt-_yrcLst3s

My response, And the Judas chair is not mentioned here: https://www.livescience.com/11338-medieval-torture-10-biggest-myths.html?fbclid=IwAR2aSCgiyWHbwvOcpYZeYL5WzAkncC9AU8UZujIXQ6HeBR2q-D-IV6XET84

My response, Likewise, the Judas chair is not mentioned here: https://www.medievalists.net/2016/03/why-medieval-torture-devices-are-not-medieval/?fbclid=IwAR37poA_3QYgklvaie2AqZmzY2fXHOLrVWSSMOAk0fdF4Awm8NeuX8g-K48

“The Chair in your meme was never used as a torture device. Neither was the iron maiden. I suppose 40 years of reading history could be wrong..but I do not think so. Take the biggest lie, repeat it over and over and people will believe it. Works on the religious and nonreligious. 1) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vvy8v3/the-middle-ages-darkest-tech-was-invented-by-victorian-con-men?fbclid=IwAR2XuioLg8xtxkMD221KDZxd_JYF3KUbZvheljG3disb4jUcFWWu9W50j4w 2) https://www.neatorama.com/2012/02/29/five-common-misconceptions-about-the-middle-ages/?fbclid=IwAR0tUeV4RZ7i3qcTbxKLh8phfuRS0ADUtDHeGX9Fw327vUKIDUTaMTBnu68” – Challenger 2

My response, Your first offered source again does not mention the Judas chair, so I don’t get what value it has to support your claim and the other second source you just offered uses a Wikipedia search fail but the chair is listed on Wikipedia under the name Iron Chair and as you yourself stated Wiki is not a great source. But the Judas chair is mentioned as true on the history chanal link. https://www.history.co.uk/shows/britains-bloodiest-dynasty/articles/torture-in-the-middle-ages

My response, “One known victim of the iron chair was Jean Calas of Toulouse, France, in 1762. Calas had been tried for the murder of his son, but maintained his innocence throughout the trial and after his sentencing. The death was a suicide, he claimed. Aside from the chair, Calas was also tortured on the wheel, and by having his legs and arms stretched until they were yanked from their sockets. It’s unclear if this was before or after the Iron Chair.” https://www.weirdhistorian.com/iron-chair/

My response,A torture chair in the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum. https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~geoff/adventures/karlsruhe/rothenburg/reductions/P2005.01.05-14.16.42-4519.03.html Europe’s only museum of the law. https://www.rothenburg.de/welcome/sightseeing/museums/medieval-crime-museum/

My response, A torture chair in the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum is shown in this video of their’s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=83&v=pFSBarhFa4w from this page https://www.kriminalmuseum.eu/

“Jean Calas: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jean-Calas” – Challenger 2

My response, A torture chair in the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum. https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~geoff/adventures/karlsruhe/rothenburg/reductions/P2005.01.05-14.16.42-4519.03.html Europe’s only museum of the law. https://www.rothenburg.de/welcome/sightseeing/museums/medieval-crime-museum/

My response, A torture chair in the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum is shown in this video of theirs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=83&v=pFSBarhFa4w from this page https://www.kriminalmuseum.eu/ I see it is not listed on Britannica as stated in the weird historian post. But it is exhibited at the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum.

“We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid.” – Challenger 2

My response, Also, “ranker” was one of your first offered sources as debunking torture devices but they also have a “ranker” that lists torture devices seeming to contradict itself some as a source. https://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-types-of-medieval-torment/litgoddess

“Damien Marie AtHope most people believe torture was really common…it wasn’t. Most people believe that the iron maiden was used…it wasn’t. People believe a lot of nonsense. They have every right to as long as they hurt no one else. The fact you think torture was common is closely tied to being anti-religious. I am glad my education predated the New Atheism it was boring but less prone to confirmation bias. Not to make a fine point. But I got those stories to…from teachers no less. Why question something believed so broadly that people write “authoritative” articles based on nonsense. My first shock of escaping common ideas like iron maidens and chairs was my 12th-grade history teacher. He blew the torture devices out of our minds with devastating force. He was right. I was not. And many people who write articles online clearly were not blessed with a teacher like him. Did torture occur? Yes. But many devices believed to have been used were invented by charlatans to titillate audiences in Victorian England. So no, the chair was not a torture devise taken seriously by historians. Neither was the pear or the iron maiden. Believe what you will. But remember this the church tortured but did not want to shed blood..this device simply would not have made the cut. The fact articles contradict says one thing you are not considering…there are debate and disagreement in such claims. That means certainty is likely not appropriate…a rational reasoned conclusion. I will rely on my reading of history which predates the inaccuracies of the internet…which has no quality control device.” – Challenger 2

My response, Although I have found seeming sources for the chair listed and shown at the Rothenburg Medieval Crime Museum. I do think your offering of the professorbuzzkill source (saying it was a myth) seems to be a potentially credible source. So I am open to there being questions to its accuracy of the chair but not to the others shown unless you have sources that are credible specifically discrediting them.

A Challenge to Christian use of Torture Devices?

The Atheist-Humanist-Leftist Revolutionaries Shows in the prehistory series:

Damien Marie AtHope (Said as “At” “Hope”)/(Autodidact Polymath but not good at math):

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