This looks like rock formations to me, as seen here.
Was Noah’s Ark found on Mount Ararat as claimed by Ron Wyatt? No, of course not.
Hammer of Truth: Investigate (ONTOLOGY), Expose (EPISTEMOLOGY), and Judge (AXIOLOGY)
“FACT CHECK: Noah’s Ark (FALSE) Discovery – Snopes.com”
THIS SITE HAS A PERFECTLY REASONABLE NATURAL GEOLOGICAL EXPLANATION. ref
“The Ark: Could Noah’s Tale Be True? – Live Science”
(not with the complete lack of physical evidence of a great flood)
Ronald Eldon Wyatt (2 June 1933 – August 4, 1999) was a Pseudoarchaeologist–Pseudohistorian famed for alleged discoveries of material evidence in support of some of the major events recorded in the Bible , such as advocating the Durupınar site as the site of Noah’s Ark, along with almost 100 other alleged Bible-related discoveries. They have been dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars, and other creationists but his work continues to have a following. 1, 2
Pseudoarcheology is a pseudoscience focused on the study or promotion of archaeology in ways which do not meet the basic standards of the scientific method. Pseudoarcheology often involves the study of real archeological objects such as pyramids and the Stonehenge monument but ascribes alleged mystical powers or supernatural origins to them. Belief in ancient astronauts, or in mythological locations such as Atlantis, are sometimes part of pseudoarchaeology. Indigenous Aryans theory propagated by Hindutva advocates is an example of pseudoarchaeology. ref
Answers in Genesis (Pseudo-archaeology–Pseudo-history), on, Were Dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark?
The history of God’s creation (told in Genesis 1 and 2) tells us that all the land-dwelling creatures were made on Day Six of Creation Week—the same day God made Adam and Eve. Therefore, it is clear that dinosaurs (being land animals) were made with man. Also, two of every kind (seven of some) of land animal boarded the Ark. Nothing indicates that any of the land animal kinds were already extinct before the Flood. Besides, the description of “behemoth” in chapter 40 of the book of Job (Job lived after the Flood) only fits with something like a sauropod dinosaur. The ancestor of “behemoth” must have been on board the Ark. ref We also find many dinosaurs that were trapped and fossilized in Flood sediment. Widespread legends of encounters with dragons give another indication that at least some dinosaurs survived the Flood. The only way this could happen is if they were on the Ark. Juveniles of even the largest land animals do not present a size problem, and, being young, they have their full breeding life ahead of them. Yet most dinosaurs were not very large at all—some were the size of a chicken (although absolutely no relation to birds, as many evolutionists, are now saying). Most scientists agree that the average size of a dinosaur is actually the size of a large sheep or bison. For example, God most likely brought Noah two young adult sauropods (e.g., apatosaurs), rather than two full-grown sauropods. The same goes for the elephant kind, the giraffe kind, and other animals that grow to be very large. However, there was adequate room for most fully grown adult animals anyway. As far as the number of different types of dinosaurs, it should be recognized that, although there are hundreds of names for different varieties (species) of dinosaurs that have been discovered, there are probably only 50 to 90 actual different kinds. ref
- The Pseudohistoric and Pseudoscientific claims about “Bakoni Ruins” of South Africa
- Aquatic Ape Theory/Hypothesis? As Always, Just Pseudoscience.
- Ancient Aliens Conspiracy Theorists are Pseudohistorians
- Creationism (pseudoscience)
- I Hate Religion Just as I Hate all Pseudoscience
- I Ain’t Afraid of no Ghosts as the Claims are not Real
- Religious Fallacies: Appeal to Emotion and its Multiple Fallacy Subheadings
- Sound thinking, Presumptive-value, Axiology, and Disciplined-Rationality
- Faith Drunk thinking: Divine fallacy, Argument from Incredulity, and Argument from ignorance
Pseudohistory covers a variety of theories that do not agree with the view of history that is commonly accepted by mainstream historians, which are often not properly researched, peer-reviewed, or supported by the usual historiographical methods. Pseudohistory is often combined with pseudoarchaeology, and pseudohistory presents many of the same challenges to mainstream academic history as pseudoscience does to science, but with certain significant differences. The most important difference is that history is an academic discipline, rather than a scientific one. This means that mainstream history is very dependent on a set of shared ethical academic standards and methods, and on peer review. However, supporters of pseudohistorical theories often specifically deny the validity of these mainstream standards and methods, and denounce the peer review process as prejudiced towards the academic establishment, attempting instead to gain popular appeal. This lack of common ground can often make it difficult for mainstream historians to refute the pseudohistorical claims. An example of the conflation of pseudohistory with mysticism is the historical claims in the Book of Mormon that the Native Americans are descended from a family of Israelites who migrated to the Americas during Old Testament times. Some Baptists, mostly Independent Baptists, hold to a pseudohistorical myth of Baptist successionism claiming a direct line of Baptists back to the first century Christian church. Pseudohistory is the work of intentional revisionism or deluded attempts to desperately prop up beliefs. This isn’t to say different presumptions of history are unreasonable given ambiguous findings, but reasonable historians don’t try to shoehorn their agenda into the past. Honest historical research tries to find the blanks that need to be filled in. 1
- An Archaeological/Anthropological Understanding of Religion Evolution
- 6,500–5,800 years ago in Israel Late Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Period in the Southern Levant Seems to Express Northern Levant Migrations, Cultural and Religious Transfer
- Everyone Killed in the Bible Flood? “Nephilim” (giants)?
- Bible Morality and a Genocidal god of Watery Death?
- Jews, Judaism, and the Origins of Some of its Ideas
- Jews enslaved in Egypt is Myth…..
Ron Wyatt was a textbook example of a Pseudoarchaeologist–Pseudohistorian, having presented fraudulent or amateurishly misinterpreted “evidence” on a number of occasions, notably the remains of Noah’s Ark, the Ark of the Covenant and various nonsense regarding Moses and the Red Sea in Exodus. 1
Wyatt was working as a nurse anesthetist in a hospital in Madison, Tennessee, when in 1960, he saw a picture in Life of the Durupınar site, a boat-like shape on a mountain near Mount Ararat. The resulting widespread speculation in evangelical Christian circles that this might be Noah’s Ark started Wyatt on his career as an amateur archaeologist. From 1977 until his death in 1999 he made over one hundred trips to the Middle East, his interests widening to take in a wide variety of references from the Old and New Testaments. His work was typically rejected by mainstream archaeology and Christians alike, the bulk of his support coming from the more extreme fringes of evangelical Christianity. Wyatt’s work is best characterized as being highly interpretive and suffering from a deficit of evidence. A schism developed after his death in which the ownership of his records fell into dispute. This led to some of his records being difficult to locate. 1, 2
By the time of his death in 1999, Wyatt claimed to have discovered several sites and artifacts related to the Bible and Biblical archaeology. These included:
- Noah’s Ark (the Durupınar site, located approximately 29 kilometres (18 mi) south of Mount Ararat) ref
- Anchor stones (or drogue stones) used by Noah on the Ark ref
- The post-flood house, grave markers, and tombs of Noah and his wife ref
- The location of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other Cities of the Plain: Zoar, Zeboim and Admah ref
- Sulfur/brimstone balls from the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah ref
- The area of Djoser’s pyramid complex believed to be the remains of Joseph’s grain distribution bins used during the seven-year famine ref
- The Tower of Babel site (in southern Turkey) ref
- How the Egyptians may have built the pyramids ref
- The site of the Israelites‘ crossing of the Red Sea (located in the Gulf of Aqaba) ref
- Chariot wheels and other relics of the army of Pharaoh at the bottom of the Red Sea ref
- The site of the biblical Mount Sinai (in Saudi Arabia at Jabal al-Lawz) ref
- A chamber at the end of a maze of tunnels under Jerusalem containing artifacts from Solomon’s Temple, including the Ark of the Covenant ref
- The site of the Crucifixion of Jesus ref
- Christ‘s blood in an “earthquake crack” beneath the crucifixion site, the DNA of which, according to Wyatt, contained 24 chromosomes, rather than 46 ref
- Burial pots off the coast of Ashkelon ref ref
Answers in Genesis (AIG) provides an appraisal of Wyatt’s remarkable good fortune in discovering so many artifacts and sites of the bible:
“Are the claims true? If they are, such a staggeringly impressive list would mean that Ron Wyatt had been almost as miraculously assisted by God as the patriarch Moses. If, however, a careful examination of just one or two of these claims reveals them to be false, fanciful or fraudulent, the ‘divine leading’ option evaporates, and it is clear that Christians are being seriously misled.” ref
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Could you believe the alternative, to accept that Wyatt, an amateur archaeologist, did the archaeological equivalent of developing General Relativity, Gravitational Theory, and after a break for lunch went on to develop the Theory of Evolution. Wyatt’s work is typically cited by fundamentalists as proof that events in the Bible actually occurred, but even this is only attempted by the terminally ignorant or stupid. When AIG shies away from something, it’s a pretty good indicator that it’s broken on through to the other side of crazy. Wyatt was not considered credible by professional archaeologists and biblical scholars. The Garden Tomb Association of Jerusalem state in a letter they issue to visitors on request:
The Council of the Garden Tomb Association (London) totally refute the claim of Wyatt to have discovered the original Ark of the Covenant or any other biblical artifacts within the boundaries of the area known as the Garden Tomb Jerusalem. Though Wyatt was allowed to dig within this privately owned garden on a number of occasions (the last occasion being the summer of 1991) staff members of the Association observed his progress and entered his excavated shaft. As far as we are aware nothing was ever discovered to support his claims nor have we seen any evidence of biblical artifacts or temple treasures. ref
Archaeologist Joe Zias of Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) has stated that “Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. … [His claims] fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun etc.” ref
Wyatt’s official organization, Wyatt Archaeological Research (WAR), claims that the IAA has always been aware of the excavations and issued “verbal permits” for most of them and official permits to all WAR excavations since 2002. Nevertheless, the only evidence of WAR involvement in a legitimate excavation sanctioned by the IAA relates to WAR part-funding of a 2005 dig. ref
Evangelicals have also been critical of Wyatt’s claims: Answers in Genesis called Wyatt’s claims “fraudulent”, ref and David Merling, a Seventh-day Adventist professor of archaeology addressed the issues of Wyatt’s Noah’s Ark and anchor stones with the following:
While the Durupinar site is about the right length for Noah’s ark, [it is] … too wide to be Noah’s ark. Wyatt has claimed that the “boat-shapedness” of this formation can only be explained by its being Noah’s ark, but both Shea and Morris have offered other plausible explanations. Likewise, Wyatt has argued that the standing stones he has found are anchors, while Terian is aware of similar stones outside the Durupinar site area that were pagan cultic stones later converted by Christians for Christian purposes. ref 1, 2
Biblical Archaeology/Pseudoarchaeology?
“”Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians had transmitted God’s promise to the Jewish patriarchs, as an unbroken patrimony, to the Christians, and in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries you could hardly throw away an orange peel in the Holy Land without hitting a fervent excavator. General Gordon, the biblical fanatic later slain by the Mahdi at Khartoum, was very much to the fore. William Albright of Baltimore was continually vindicating Joshua‘s Jericho and other myths. Some of these diggers, even given the primitive techniques of the period, counted as serious rather than merely opportunistic. Morally serious too: the French Dominican archaeologist Roland de Vauxgave a hostage to fortune by saying that “if the historical faith of Israel is not founded in history, such faith is erroneous, and therefore, our faith is also.” A most admirable and honest point, on which the good father may now be taken up.—Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything ref
While — in modernity — the archeology of the near and middle east has become a serious and respectable academic field in itself, without which our understanding of the spurious and man-made nature of various religious texts would be severely diminished, prominent scholars in the field of “biblical archaeology” such as Professor of Ancient History and Archaeology Eric H. Cline, author of Biblical Archaeology: A Very Short Introduction (published by Oxford University Press and winner of the 2011 Biblical Archaeology Society’s “Best Popular Book on Archaeology”), ref takes the time to warn and warn again of the rampant interest in the field from well-funded pseudoscientific cranks out to prove whichever of the abrahamitic myths they happen to subscribe to personally, stating: While biblical archaeologists working today are generally more interested in learning about details of daily life in the ancient biblical world than proving or disproving the accounts in the Bible, many lay people have these priorities reversed. They want to know: Did the Flood take place? Did Abraham and the Patriarchs exist? Were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by fire and brimstone? Did the Exodus occur? These were some of the original questions in biblical archaeology that intrigued the earliest pioneers of the field. They still resonate today but are far from being answered by biblical archaeologists. In fact, solutions and answers to such questions are more frequently proposed by pseudo-archeologists or archaeological charlatans, who take the public’s money to support ventures that offer little chance of furthering the cause of knowledge. Every year, “scientific” expeditions embark to look for the Garden of Eden, Noah’s Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. These expeditions are often supported by prodigious sums of money donated by gullible believers who eagerly accept tales spun by sincere but misguided amateurs or by rapacious confidence men. These ventures, which usually originate outside the confines of established scholarly institutions, engender confusion about what is real and what is fake. By practicing pseudo-archeology rather than by using established archeological principles and real science, the archaeological charlatans bring discredit to the field of biblical archaeology. Eminent biblical scholar Michael Coogan and author of The Old Testament: A Very Short Introduction (published by Oxford University Press) also chimes in to underscore the inherent fail in pursuing pseudo-archaeology to try and prove the patently false myths recorded in scripture: ref Correlating the meager textual references with the extensive archaeological discoveries has been controversial, to say the least, and similar problems exist for almost every excavated site whose ancient identification is known. As a result, it is now clear that archaeology cannot “prove” the Bible’s historicity. 1, 2
Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research Fraud Documentation
- WAR (Wyatt Archaeological Research) Still Peddles Ron Wyatt’s Frauds.
- Jim Bakker Joins Ron Wyatt (WAR) Fraud
- A Great Christian Scam
- Has Noah’s Ark Been Found? Part I – Dr. David Merling
- Has Noah’s Ark Been Found? Part II – Dr. David Merling
Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research
Fraud Documentation
(If the reader is looking for quotes on war(s) visit: quotes on war The following is an expose of W.A.R., Wyatt Archaeological Research, and Ron Wyatt.) “Dew from Mount Hermon” published the article “A Great Christian Scam” exposing the so-called discoveries of Ron Wyatt as nothing more than a great hoax perpetrated upon the Christian community for money and fame, Joel Davenport, the manager of WAR’s Internet site has published an article located at their web site accusing me, Gary Amirault, of not telling the truth. In the article, I did not disclose the names of my sources since the article only went to a few hundred subscribers who trusted my reporting. I didn’t feel providing names and addresses was necessary. But since Mr. Davenport’s extremely distorted assessment of the accuracy of “A Great Christian Scam,” and since WAR and associates are continuing to defraud the Christian community by selling videos, books, speaking engagements, trips to Israel, enticing investors in further digs, etc., all based upon discoveries which were never made, I feel it is time to lay out enough evidence to make it perfectly clear to any sane individual that we are dealing here with nothing short of an outright scam. I have telephone interviewed most of the people on WAR’s Noah’s Ark video. Not one single person I spoke with on that video presently believes that Ron Wyatt’s site is Noah’s Ark. Some are outraged that Wyatt is still using film clips which make them look like they are substantiating Wyatt’s claims when, in fact, the opposite is the case. Listed below are some of the individuals who appear on the video. Compare the story WAR continues to sell with the actual words written by the scientists after doing extensive research on the site. They no longer believe it is Noah’s Ark. They believe it is a natural geological formation. As to the so-called discoveries on Ron Wyatt’s video entitled “Presentation of Discoveries,” those interviewed whom Ron Wyatt presented with his “facts” put little or no archaeological value on any of the material. “Fraud” was the word most often used when discussing these so-called discoveries. Read the letters from archaeologists within Ron Wyatt’s own denomination, Seventh Day Adventist, and you will see that even those who would have an interest in substantiating Ron Wyatt’s claims find little or no scientific evidence to support any of these discoveries. As to Ron Wyatt’s organization being non-profit and as such having no investors, I spoke to businessmen and television producers who have invested money into Wyatt Archaeological Research for television rights. There have been many tens of thousands of dollars invested in WAR. To date, none of those who invested this money has seen a shred of scientific evidence substantiating Ron Wyatt’s claims. Where is the report from the blood sample analysis of what Ron claims is the blood of Jesus Christ? Where is the Ark of the Covenant? Which museum is housing the ancient chariot wheels he claimed to have been from the Red Sea Crossing? There is no evidence because the video is a fraud. On the Noah’s Ark video, all the so-called scientific data cannot be duplicated, a clear sign that what was given the labs was false data. (Read John Baumgarten’s and Tom Fenner’s letter) In summary, “A Great Christian Scam” was written to warn the readership of “Dew from Mount Hermon” magazine of Ron Wyatt’s deception. That was as far as I planned to tell the story. Since the story appeared on the Internet, we have received many inquiries from many Christian organizations asking for more information. Since Joel Davenport has chosen to publish a very misleading article written to discredit my article, I felt it necessary to release further documentation of the overwhelming evidence against WAR’s claims of the greatest archaeological discoveries of all time. Read the letters. Write or call some of them. Those professionals who have seen the evidence (or lack thereof) and those who have had dealings with Ron Wyatt will make it plain to anyone that WAR’s discoveries are hoaxes. Since this report has been published, Ron Wyatt died. Yet there are many individuals who are promoting Ron Wyatt’s claims. Here are a few such individuals: Jim and Penny Caldwell, Richard Rives, Pinkowski, Mary Nell Wyatt, John McCoy, Bill Fry, Kevin Fisher, Jonathan Gray, Rebecca Samsing, Lenneri Moller and Henry Gruver, and Jim Bakker. ref
For other reports on Wyatt Archaeological Research see the following Internet sites:
Christian Information Ministries: Bill Crouse, President, Christian Information Ministries
Creation Magazine: Amazing Ark Expose’, Andrew A. Snelling PhD. Geology, Answers in Genesis
Special Report: Amazing “Ark” Exposé
Spectacular Claims, a Misleading Video, People Misquoted and Misrepresented …
It’s No Wonder Many Have Asked the Question … Could This Be Noah’s Ark?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
The Main Claims at a Glance
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
True/False?
- Radar shows man-made (boat) structure……….FALSE
- There is a regular metallic pattern…………FALSE
- Lab tests show petrified laminated wood……..FALSE
- Turkish scientists found metal rods…………FALSE
- Metal artifacts have been proved by lab……..FALSE
- There are ‘ship’s ribs’ showing…………….FALSE
- There is lots of petrified wood…………….FALSE
- Turkish Commission says ‘it’s a boat………..FALSE ref
Also: Refutation of Mary Wyatt’s ‘rebuttal’, Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found?
Walls of the Boat? No, again.
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: In the walls that define the outline of the boat-shape is evidence of a former ship’s ribs, presumably, the timbers that formed part of the original keel structure/hull (‘a few beams protruding out’). ref
In Reality: These walls, in places standing 20-30 feet (69 metres) sheer above the immediately surrounding terrain, certainly give the impression of the outer hull of a boat. However, that is where all similarity ends. These walls are simply hardened mud, containing boulders of the various local rock types. They contain no petrified wood holding in the mud in any way reminiscent of the outer planking of a wooden-hulled vessel. Closer examination of the so-called photographic ‘evidence’ of a ship’s ribs reveals that erosion gullies cutting into the walls at fairly regular intervals, mainly in one area, have given the appearance at a distance of thick beam structures; however, they are merely the hardened mud left behind between these erosion gullies. As the burden of proof rests with those who claim that these are a ship’s ribs, one would have thought that they would have sampled this material and submitted it for scientific tests. However, there is no indication that it has ever been sampled by Wyatt or Roberts to see what they really are. On the other hand, all the other eyewitnesses who have been to the site insist that they only ever saw mud, containing boulders (mudflow debris), forming these walls. ref
Where their trainloads and boatloads of petrified wood? No.
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: ‘There are trainloads and boatloads of petrified wood out there and it is all in the boat structure.’ Furthermore, the prized exhibit Wyatt shows to visitors, and photographs of which are regularly displayed is a sample of “petrified” wood identified as pecky cypress-removed from inside the “hull” in the presence of the Governor of Agri.’ ref
In Reality: No trained scientist of the many who have visited the site has ever seen any sign of these ‘trainloads’ of petrified wood. Geologist Dr Bayraktutan has collected one or two small fragments of semi-petrified wood which in his opinion have flowed on to the site within the mud from elsewhere. He confirms that none of the regular rock types of the site are petrified wood. Not one of the other scientists (including geologists familiar with petrified wood) has ever once seen any. Yet Wyatt continues to show untrained people samples of what he claims is petrified wood from the site. His prize sample, reportedly dug up in the presence of the Governor of the Turkish province of Agri, is not only claimed to be petrified wood, but alleged to be ‘laminated’ and ‘deck timber’. Roberts too has made much of this sample, being photographed with it, and claiming that this ‘petrified laminated timber’ is of major significance, since the Ark was made of gopher wood which, he says, could mean laminated wood. Both Wyatt and Roberts claim support for the identification of this sample by citing Galbraith Laboratories of Tennessee, yet the laboratory assay certificate shows that they only analyzed for three elements-calcium, iron and carbon-no basis at all for calling the sample petrified wood! When telephoned, the laboratory was adamant that they were not asked to give an opinion on what the object was and they were unable to do so. The only other supportive evidence revealed by Roberts privately was a typewritten statement claiming that the sample (which is said to have no growth rings*) had been ‘identified visually as pecky cypress by John Mackay’. That is all. No one should make such an identification without a microscope thin section which would show, if the sample really was petrified wood, the cellular wood structure. No such thin sectioning has been done, and when urged by Roberts’ group Ark Search to do so (after Creation Science Foundation pointed this out), Wyatt refused to submit the sample for such sectioning and proper scientific testing and assessment. (*Ark Search literature has a photo of one of Wyatt’s specimens of ‘petrified wood’ which, in contrast to the above mentioned, shows what look like growth lines. That specimen is also claimed to show a ‘tenon joint’. To our knowledge, there is a total absence of supportive documentation on that alleged find, which may explain why it is rarely mentioned, in stark contrast to the other.) A Christian who was researching these claims writes (in a document forming part of Ark Search’s ‘written evidence’) that when he was shown this ‘petrified laminated wood’ sample, Wyatt told him that he had had it analyzed by Galbraith Laboratories and the tests indicated that it was silicate replacement (that is, the wood had been replaced by a silicon compound). This cannot be truthful, since the laboratory report, also in Ark Search’s possession, shows that silicon was not even analyzed for by Galbraith! No future compliance by Wyatt to have the sample sectioned is feasible without the safeguard of eye-witnesses who are familiar with this so-called ‘laminated’ ‘pecky cypress’. On the other hand, there are lots of chunks of basalt on the site and buried in the surface mudflow material. Those people we know of with a trained eye who have seen this particular sample of Wyatt’s have all identified it as basalt. Furthermore, their testimony, plus photographic assessment and microscopic examination of basalt samples from the site, strongly suggest the alleged ‘petrified adhesive’ is actually calcite veining. ref
Higher Carbon in Samples Coming From Within Vessel? No.
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: Soil samples from the site indicate the residue of a decayed wooden vessel with sophisticated metals used for bracing, the samples coming from within the formation having a much higher carbon content. ref
In Reality: Two soil samples were indeed collected by Wyatt in 1979 and the assay results from Galbraith Laboratories were published by Dr William Shea. It is also true that the samples contained iron, aluminum, titanium, and carbon, but such elements are always to be found in soils. Indeed, the assay results of these two samples are exactly what one would expect from soil developed from basalt-the iron, aluminum and titanium originally being present in silicate minerals within the basalt and not as exotic metal fittings as proposed by Wyatt. Furthermore, the laboratory assayed only for carbon and did not specify that it was organic carbon, so Wyatt and others are wrong to claim that the carbon in these samples comes from decayed wood. On the contrary, most of the basalt boulders on and near the site (including samples collected by Roberts and submitted for scientific assessment) contain abundant calcite, a very common mineral composed of calcium carbonate; that is, it contains carbon in mineral form-not organic carbon. No soil or rock samples gathered at the site are supportive of Wyatt’s claims. ref
Pitch Found?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: Some pitch has been found (pitch was used to cover the inside and outside of the Ark’s wooden structure). ref
In Reality: This claim appears to come primarily from Roberts and Mackay. However, no sample has been openly produced and submitted for proper scientific analyses. The only scientific procedure that could verify it as being pitch would be a gas chromatographic analysis-the standard method used worldwide for studying the chemical composition of all organic carbon materials. Tar and bitumen, for example, are routinely identified in this way because gas chromatographic analyses reveal the presence of the ‘heavy’, long-chain carbon molecules that are the hallmark of these substances. Thus, until such analyses are performed on verified samples from the site, this claim cannot be taken at face value. ref
Rivets, Metal Rods, and Cotter Pins?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: A rusted metal bracket and other fittings and metal artifacts including a ‘petrified rivet’ and ‘washer structures’, have all been located ‘on the site’. Furthermore, ‘Turkish archaeologists came in and dug in three locations recovering petrified wood plus eight pairs of long forked metal rods, resembling cotter pins with washers.’ ref
In Reality: It is certainly true that samples found on the site has returned assays of around 90% iron oxides. One of these samples appeared to be roughly in the shape of a right angle and was initially conjectured to be the remains of an iron bracket. Baumgardner (he and Fasold each still possess half of it) now concedes that there is no evidence that it is a man-made item. The notable discovery of iron oxide (limonite) nodules in the surface mud is entirely consistent with the weathering of iron sulphide (pyrite) nodules and veins (which are found in the rocks of the area) and not in any way with the rusting of metallic fittings, brackets or artifacts. The so-called ‘fossil rivet’ is reported to have been found on June 27, 1991 as witnessed by 12 people, in a gully within 50 metres outside of the ‘wall’ on the western side. Three independent assay laboratories are then cited as the proof of an unusual metal content in the ‘fossil rivet’, which in turn is the ‘sophistication’ one would expect from ‘those who manufactured them’ being ‘technologically advanced’—based on the biblical reference to Tubal-cain being a craftsman in brass and iron (Genesis 4:22). However, photographs of the object show only an impression that vaguely has the shape of a rivet head. A circular pattern around it has been taken to be ‘washers’ in the rock, but there is no evidence of any embedded metallic object. Furthermore, the assays from all three laboratories returned results consistent with the chemical composition of the major local rock type, basalt.* The only metals present in any major amount were all reported as present in silicate minerals. In two of the three assays, all the so-called ‘exotic’ metals were less than the detection limits, while in the third assay the quantities were totally consistent with a hydrothermally altered basalt. (*There were, of course, minor divergences between results, but this is hardly surprising given that at least one of the laboratories gave their results as semi-quantitative only, with a plus or minus factor of 50%!) In other words, the results do not show any evidence of exotic metallurgy. Any proper scientific assessment of this sample must involve a microscope thin section being cut so that the minerals in the sample could be identified and any evidence of metals be subjected to microscopic analyses using an electron microprobe analyses. Such is not possible so long as Wyatt refuses to allow sectioning of the sample and consistently violates proper scientific protocol/procedures for verification. As for the report of the Turkish archaeologists, finding eight pairs of long forked metal rods, etc., the only source of that story is Wyatt himself. It appears that the Turkish authorities sent in their own teams of scientists in September 1985 after Wyatt and his team had left the site and the country. Wyatt claims to have gone back to Turkey in October 1985 and to have seen the field notebooks of the archaeologists, read them and interviewed the archaeologists. Thus the claim about these long forked metal rods, etc. is only as reliable as Wyatt himself. On the other hand, Dr Bayraktutan, a leading member of one of these Turkish investigation teams, not only most emphatically does not support this and other claims, but is at pains to dissociate himself from almost all of Wyatt’s claims about the site, expressing grave doubts about how much of Wyatt’s ‘evidence’ actually found its way on to the site. ref
Rocks with High Manganese Content?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: Rocks found within the formation have a high manganese content and an appearance that suggests that they were probably ‘tailings’/‘slag’ from metal smelting/refining production by Noah and family. These rocks are inside the formation because Noah used them as ballast within the Ark. ref
In Reality: Both Wyatt and Roberts make this claim and back it up with an analysis of a sample by Galbraith Laboratories that returned an assay of 84.14% manganese dioxide on a dry basis. However, no microscope thin section has been produced to show whether the samples collected and claimed to be slag do in fact have the internal texture and mineral composition of a true slag. Until that is done this claim is far from proven. Roberts has been given the opportunity to have his sample cut and microscopically examined and photographed, but to date has not responded. Morris has rightly pointed out that since the basalts in this area are indicative of lavas that flowed out on to a subaqueous surface then these samples could well be manganese nodules, which even today are found on the ocean floor. Again, a microscope thin section carefully examined would establish this.*(*In an interesting twist, Fasold has slammed Morris by misquoting him, then used that to say that he didn’t know the difference between manganese nodules and the iron oxide-rich samples that were also collected from the site and analyzed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. On the contrary, it is Fasold who is confused because Morris is referring to these manganese-rich samples collected by Wyatt and analyzed by Galbraith Laboratories. Again, any claim about these samples by Wyatt and Roberts remains totally unsubstantiated until microscopic examination takes place.) ref
Animal Parts? No, again.
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: ‘Positively identified animal coprolite (fossilized animal dung)’, animal hair, and ‘animal antlers’ are all reported from the site and are thus further confirmation that this site contains the remains of Noah’s Ark, because these are the tell-tale signs of the animals that were aboard with Noah and family. ref
In Reality: Although we have not been shown these items, only photographs of some, it is nevertheless likely that they have been correctly identified. The animal hairs referred to by Roberts had, he told me, been found in the mud in the sides of the ‘walls’. He said they had been identified by three independent scientists in the United Kingdom as being animal hairs. Roberts also indicated that the small fossilized antler tip (not ‘animal antlers’ as reported in his booklet) was first observed in situ projecting from the mud of the western ‘wall’ of the formation. The object was subsequently identified by two scientists, one a geologist and the other a biologist, as a fossilized deer antler. Furthermore, Roberts references the coprolites as being visually identified by Mackay in 1991. It should be immediately noted that where locational details have been supplied the items concerned have all only been found in the mud in the walls’ —not from deep within the formation or ‘boat’, as one would have expected. Yet the finding of such animal residues in association with the site is hardly surprising when one considers that animals are likely to have roamed across these Turkish hillsides for thousands of years anyway. ref
Rock Slabs Near Boat Formation?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: A number of large rock slabs found across the valley within sight of the boat formation are so-called drogue stones which were used to steer or anchor vessels. Their proximity to the site suggests that they could well have been giant anchor stones used by Noah to steer the Ark and keep it facing the wind. The stones have carefully made holes and these would have been where ropes were attached. Furthermore, some of these rocks have eight crosses carved on them, one being larger than all the others, representing an iconographic depiction of Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. ref
In Reality: Wyatt, Roberts, Fasold, and Shea all make much of these large rock slabs, with photographs and drawings. They measure up to three metres high and each weighs several tonnes. Wyatt on his video says these ‘anchor stones are made of a type of granite that is accessible in Northern Michigan’, whereas both Roberts and Shea insist that they were cut from basalt, a volcanic rock of which there are copious amounts in the area (both Greater and Lesser Mount Ararats are volcanoes). Noah would scarcely have used as anchor stones slabs of rock indigenous to the area where the Ark came to rest after the Flood. If we are to believe that these could have been Noah’s anchor stones, then the onus is on Wyatt and his colleagues to prove by scientific means (chemical and isotopic analyses and mineralogical determinations) that these rocks are entirely exotic to this area, which consists of late Flood and post-Flood strata. Now it is claimed that between eight and ten of these stones have been found in an area 10–14 miles (16–22 kilometres) from the boat-shape formation, although one was reportedly found in a gully 100–200 metres up slope from it. One would think that the considerable distance of these claimed anchor stones from the boat-shape itself must diminish somewhat their significance.*
(*In any case, one wonders why Noah needed such anchor or drogue stones on and with the Ark. They are certainly not mentioned in the Scriptures, where there is, in fact, no mention of any kind of steering mechanism given in God’s instructions for the building of the Ark. Indeed, we are told repeatedly that God was in total command of the situation. For example, we are told that God shut Noah in the Ark. Then when he and his family were inside the Ark they were totally at the mercy of God Who was providing for their safety in the Flood Waters.) Wyatt, however, counters by suggesting that as the Ark neared dry land at the end of the Flood, Noah simply cut the ropes leaving the anchor stones behind and allowing the Ark to run aground. This, of course, is mere speculation and implies that Noah had something to do with the destiny and direction of the Ark, contrary to the thrust of the scriptural account. Besides, if these were anchor stones, the holes were carved too near the edges of the rocks. Because of their sheer weight the rock around the holes would have too easily broken off. Indeed, there is no sign of any wear of the rock surface around the top side of these holes, which one would expect if ropes had been tied through them to drag these heavy stones around in the water for up to a year. In any case, there is a far better explanation for these giant stones. To begin with, the number of crosses on them varies from three to 20, the number eight being conveniently overplayed for the purposes of building a connection to Noah and his family. In Wyatt’s book where he has drawings of some of these claimed anchor stones, one of them is shown with 20 crosses. The same stone is shown photographed in the field by Roberts and Shea, in the latter case with Wyatt himself alongside, and again the 20 crosses carved into it are clearly evident. ref
Turkish Government Declares Site to be a National Park?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: The special Turkish Commission set up in conjunction with the Ataturk University at Erzurum, to investigate the site, has concluded from evidence to date that this is a huge boat. In 1987 the area was officially declared a National Park by the Turkish Government because they believe that this is not only the landing site of Noah’s Ark, but that it contains its ‘mortal remains.’ Consequently, a visitors’ center has been built overlooking the site, and an eight-lane highway is being built to the site.
In Reality: The Turkish authorities really began to get interested in this site after the Wyatt team’s August 1985 work, when the team left the site marked out with bright yellow plastic tape in square grids. Evidently, three independent research teams of Turkish scientists were then sent to the site in September 1985. Some digging was done, but no artifacts were found. Two of the teams were from Ankara, and both returned with a negative report. The third team was led by Dr Salih Bayraktutan, a geologist at Ataturk University in Erzurum, Agri Province, the same province in which the site is found. His research team, while not declaring the formation to be a boat, was far more cautious so as to keep its options open, and with good reason. The Governor of Agri Province, Sevkit Ekinci, had by this time set up a local Noah’s Ark Commission with himself as the chairman, and made up of Bayraktutan, the regional director of the central government’s Department for Water Works, the regional director for the central government’s Department of Forests, and three other prominent people from Agri Province. Bayraktutan is a devout Muslim who is aware that Noah’s Ark is also mentioned in the Koran. As both a member of the Governor’s commission and as the chief research scientist appointed by that commission, he has repeatedly investigated the site, not only in 1985, but also in 1987 and 1988. He has personally informed me most emphatically that as far as he is aware the Governor’s Noah’s Ark Commission has never declared the site to definitely be Noah’s Ark or a boat. Instead, the Commission has said that the site has historical value and should be protected in case there is some object in the mud of archaeological significance. Bayraktutan believes that there are features of the site that still need to be investigated so as to settle the claims and counter-claims once and for all. Nevertheless, while he knows Wyatt personally, he is at pains to dissociate himself from almost all of Wyatt’s claims about the site, expressing grave doubts about the claimed artifacts and about how some of Wyatt’s ‘evidence’ actually found its way on to the site. Wyatt and Roberts, in defense of this claim that the special Turkish Commission has concluded this site to be a boat, have produced a single newspaper clipping which says that ‘a Turkish research team has concurred with a Madison explorer’s claim that the remains of Noah’s Ark are buried on a barren mountainside in Eastern Turkey.’ Two minor Turkish Government officials are referred to as saying the research team’s report agrees with Wyatt that it is the Ark, and that Department of Ministry and Tourism officials were discussing the possibility of declaring a National Park. However, the same official also said that ‘No official confirmation has been forwarded to me yet.’ Interestingly, this report appeared in a local newspaper of Madison, Tennessee, which is Wyatt’s hometown. Most of the details in the report appear to have come from Wyatt himself. Neither Wyatt, it seems, nor Roberts, when queried, has been able to produce copies of reports from any Turkish research team or Government Commission, which even if they were in Turkish could easily be translated. Roberts certainly had not known, before going public with lectures and literature, of the existence of a 1987 research report in English by Bayraktutan and Baumgardner on their geophysical surveys that year. It comes as no surprise that the Governor of Agri, reputed to be a friend of Wyatt, was featured on Wyatt’s video as conducting a ceremony on the site to officially declare a National Park and, according to the narrator, announce the Turkish Government’s agreement with Wyatt’s findings that the site contains the remains of Noah’s Ark. This is the same Governor who chairs the commission and who had the visitors’ center built overlooking the site, as well as a road sign erected directing tourists to the site. The same Governor has consistently vetoed efforts to undertake a dig into the site to settle the issue once and for all (see later). As if to add credence to his claims of Turkish Government support for the site, Wyatt’s video says that an ‘eight-lane multimillion dollar highway is near completion which leads to the site.’ The pictures shown are of the highway into neighboring Iran, and not the one-lane trail of dirt, rock, and mud which tortuously winds its way from the village of Telceker to the site about four kilometres away. There is no eight-lane highway to the site or close to it. Wyatt’s video ends: ‘Because these priceless remains lie open and unguarded, the government hasn’t made a major announcement yet, but hopefully it won’t be much longer before they’re all secured.’ Years later, we are still awaiting that ‘major announcement’, and the Turkish officialdom that has the power to secure the site and its claimed remains have not done so, nor do they seem willing for outsiders to assist them. One is not surprised to hear that investigators visiting the site in November 1989 found the road sign removed, the visitors’ center not operating, and sheep grazing on the site as they used to before all the excitement! ref
Dr Snelling and CSF Have Their Own Interests in This Site?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
It is Alleged That: Dr Snelling/CSF is opposed to this Durupinar/Akyayla site containing Noah’s Ark because he/they has/have a vested interest in supporting Dr John Morris and the Institute for Creation Research (ICR). Morris/ICR have gained their reputation looking on Greater Mount Ararat for the Ark and thus have a lot to lose if the Ark turns up somewhere else, as well as being rather peeved if the Turkish Government declared this new area as the site of Noah’s Ark based on the research of ‘an amateur’. CSF would also want to protect Dr Baumgardner so that he can continue to deny that this is the Ark in order to keep his job. ref
In Reality: Dr John Morris and ICR have always freely given advice and support to other groups looking for the Ark, no matter who. Like all true Bible-believing Christians, they would be ecstatic at the Ark’s discovery, no matter by whom, nor where on the ‘mountains of Ararat’. Greater Mount Ararat itself has been the focus of Dr Morris’s search purely because the consensus among historical eye-witness reports of those who claim to have seen the Ark is that the remains were seen on that mountain, even though none of them is able to pinpoint the exact location. As for Dr Baumgardner, his job at the Los Alamos National Laboratory right from the outset (which was seven years prior to his first trip to Eastern Turkey) allowed him the time to work on geophysical modeling of the earth’s interior processes as they might relate to the Noah’s Flood catastrophe. For similar research, he received his Ph.D. at the University of California in 1983. His research at this laboratory continues while he is openly an internationally respected creationist scientist, presenting papers at the 1986 and 1990 International Conferences on Creationism. It is Dr Baumgardner’s achievements in his research work that protect his job, not any (alleged) denial of his creationist beliefs or his (actual) repudiation of his early cautious enthusiasm for Wyatt’s claims. My/CSF’s interest in these claims about the Durupinar/Akyayla site has only ever been in order to establish their truth or otherwise. After all, false claims made by professing Christians are shameful to the name of Christ. Surely the public claims made by Christians about this site should be able to stand up to a rigorous scientific investigation? Yet those who have endeavored to test these claims scientifically in the past have since had their motives questioned and their characters smeared by some proponents of this site. My/ CSF’s opposition then to this site is because when all the so-called evidence is put under rigorous scientific scrutiny it fails utterly.* (*Highlighting our concern and the need for Christians to be fully informed is the discovery that at least one major cult has begun advertising these claims to attract new followers via public meetings.) ref
If it is Not the Ark of Noah, Then What is it?
by Dr. Andrew A. Snelling on September 1, 1992
In 1987 Bayraktutan and Baumgardner, with a suitably qualified team (including Fenner), conducted systematic, detailed geophysical surveys of the type routinely used by mining companies, involving sophisticated instruments in order to find out what is below the ground surface. They completed a magnetometer survey, the instrument involved not only being capable of detecting shallowly buried magnetic/metallic objects, but also scanning deeply through the surficial cover into the bedrock below. This was followed up with a comprehensive ground-penetrating radar survey that systematically covered the whole formation from north to south along grid lines spaced two metres apart. In the time remaining the team completed three seismic survey lines longitudinally north-south to cover the entire length of the formation. The same two investigators returned with another team in 1988 and this time brought with them a drill rig. Four holes were drilled and cored to a depth of 10 metres. Additionally, a much more detailed seismic survey with more sophisticated equipment was carried out. The data from this drilling, and from these and other surveys, combined with geological mapping and sampling by these and other scientists, enables the conclusion to be made that this site has a perfectly reasonable natural geological explanation. To begin with, contrary to the views expressed publicly by those who have lampooned Roberts here in Australia, the central outcrop within the formation on its western side is not an intrusion of igneous rock such as granite or one of its equivalents. Rather, the rock is a limestone that contains abundant microfossils (such as the tiny shells of the microscopic marine creatures called foraminifera), and a further less prominent outcrop of the same rock type occurs some metres to the north on the easterly side of the formation. The same rock unit can be traced in a line, though offset in places, to the east and west of the formation, including an outcrop just outside the so-called visitors’ center. This bed of fossiliferous limestone thus cuts right across the formation in an east-west direction and appears to dip steeply to the south. This can hardly be a rocky protrusion on which a ‘boat’ brought down by the surrounding mudflow from a higher elevation became snagged or impaled, as some (e.g. Roberts) would have it. On the contrary, this limestone bed is an integral part of the local geology and because it comes to the surface right across this boatshape the latter, obviously, cannot be a petrified wooden boat. The other rock type on the site, and which predominates in the surrounding area, is basalt, a rock that is produced by the cooling of molten lavas that have flowed from volcanoes, such as Greater and Lesser Mount Ararats. In the local area, including on Greater Mount Ararat, the basalt has features that are evidence of it having cooled on the ocean floor (that is, underwater). While there appears to be no outcrop of basalt within the boat-shape formation, there are numerous basalt boulders on the surface, half-buried in the surface mudflow material, and also buried and later exposed in the hardened mud which makes up the formation’s ‘walls’. Indeed, because of the appearance of some of these boulders in the mud, to the untrained eye, they could easily be mistaken for petrified wood, as appears to have been done. Yet every sample from the site that others have suggested might be petrified wood has under the microscope always been basalt. The magnetometer survey produced absolutely no evidence of any buried metal artifacts, regular patterns or ‘iron lines’. But it did clearly show the presence of three rock units trending east-west across the formation under the surficial mudflow material, plus the presence of a fault trending north-south right down the centre. Indeed, the fault has quite clearly offset the central fossiliferous limestone bed, which is also evident from the outcrops already mentioned above. The ground-penetrating radar scans also pinpointed this fault, particularly in the northern part of the boat-shape. In the same area the radar picked up a clear sub-horizontal reflector, representing a rock boundary at a depth of between six and eight metres below the center-line ‘hump’ within the formation. The seismic surveys confirmed the presence of that rock boundary, and suggested that it was at a shallow depth in the central portions of the boat-shape. Finally, the drilling intersected basalt at between six and seven metres depth in the northern portion of the boat-shape, exactly the depth predicted by the radar and seismic work, and exactly the rock type predicted by the magnetic response in the magnetometer survey and present in the mudflow material as boulders at the surface. In the southern portion of the boat-shape the drilling intersected a different rock type, as indicated by the magnetic response in the magnetometer survey, which was very strongly deformed and strongly folded. Between these two drill-intersected rock types is the fossiliferous limestone outcrop, making up the third rock type cutting across the site, as predicted by the magnetometer survey. The significance of these drilling results should not be lost. Whereas the investigation team were hopeful that the reflector indicated by the radar and seismic surveys was, in fact, the petrified wood of the deck of the Ark, the drill intersections of solid basement rock below the surficial mudflow and weathered material immediately ruled out any petrified Ark or its remains within this site. Indeed, if this site had contained the Ark one would have expected the ‘boat’ to have not only been covered in with all this mudflow material, but full of mud inside, so there should not have been any basement rock intersected before the bottom of the conjectured ‘hull’ structure was reached. Then how could this rather convincing looking boat-shape have been produced by natural means at this site, and how is it that it was only recently exposed to view? To answer these questions we need to look at the broader perspective. The boat-shape is situated in a sloping valley and is surrounded by deposits of loose soil and crushed rock which is slowly sliding down hill, flowing much as a glacier flows-a mudflow. As we have seen, the stable area around which this mudflow material flows is an uplifted block and erosional remnant of basement rock, including limestone and basalt. Just as water flows around a rock in a river bed, the site has acquired a streamlined shape due to the dynamics of the slowly flowing mud. However, added to this is the fact that not only have the geophysical surveys revealed a fault right down the north-south centre-line of the boat-shape, but geological mapping indicates that there is a fault right along the western edge of the boat-shape and other faults in the valley floor. It is thus significant that this boat-shape first came into view as a result of an earthquake in 1948, and then its relief compared to the surrounding terrain was enhanced as a result of a further earthquake in 1978. This clearly implies that the earthquakes caused ground movements in this area which pushed up this block of basement rock and some of the mudflow material draped over it. Some of this movement occurred along the fault down the western margin of the boatshape, thus giving the almost near-vertical ‘walls’ which now define so graphically that portion of the outline of the boat-shape. Thus the ‘walls’ at this point are really what are known in geological terminology as fault scarps (that is, cliffs caused by earth movements along faults).* (*A fuller treatment or the technical details and results from these geophysical surveys, the core drilling, and the geological sampling and mapping is planned for a future issue of the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal.) So there is no mystery about this site and its boat-shape. For the many who had their hopes built up that this may be Noah’s Ark, it is not. ref
My blogs on the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity
- Sedentism and the Creation of goddesses around 12,000 years ago as well as male gods after 7,000 years ago.
- Progressed organized religion starts, an approximately 5,000-year-old belief system
- When was the beginning: TIMELINE OF CURRENT RELIGIONS? Around 4,000 years ago.
- What is early monotheism, are Atenism and Zoroastrianism totally monotheistic?
- Creationism (pseudoscience)
- Creationism is a Debunked Religious Conspiracy Theory.
- List of Creation Myths?
- Evolution is FACT in many ways!
- Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact? “It is both.”
- Technological Advances in Evolution
- Dating the BIBLE: naming names and telling times (written less than 3,000 years ago, provable to 2,200 years ago)
- Genetic studies on Jewish DNA is not 6,000 years old but has origin links to about 20,000 to 30,000 years ago?
- Everyone Killed in the Bible Flood? “Nephilim” (giants)?
- Bible Cosmology is Laughable
- Flat Earth Mania: a debunked religious theory, given new life in the post-truth world
- Attacking Biblical Statements for a “fixed” and “immovable” Earth
- No “dinosaurs and humans didn’t exist together just because some think they are in the bible itself”
- Is bible god ethical? & Would It Be Bad or Good if God Exists? (axiological “value theory” questions)
- Animistic, Totemistic, and Paganistic Superstition Origins of bible god and the bible’s Religion.
- Jews, Judaism, and the Origins of Some of its Ideas
- Jews enslaved in Egypt is Myth…..
- Sexism in Judaism (old Testament)
- Hey, Damien dude, I have a question for you regarding “the bible” Exodus.
- Evil bible god? YES OF COURSE
- Is god choiceless or standardless or removed from ethics?
- Axiological Atheism Morality Critique: of the bible god
- Your god concept is vile…
- Bible god repented of Evil?
- God the unethical father?
- David’s Punishment for Rape? God’s “Forgiveness and Baby Killing ” (2 Samuel 12:11-14)
- “hi, enemy of god” – Challenger
- Christian Hate Groups?
- God Originated Mortality?
- Faith and the Three Stooges: bhagavad-gita, bible & quran
- So the 10 commandments isn’t anything to go by either right?
- Interview with Jeff Tadlock (Stairway To Reason)
- Horned female shamans and Pre-satanism Devil/horned-god Worship? at least 10,000 years ago
- 9,000-8,500 year old Female shaman Bad Dürrenberg Germany
- Satanism More or Less
- The Devil?
- Devil, Satan, Lucifer, and the Serpent? Guess What They are Not the Same.
- Are All Religions That Existed Before Christianity From the Devil?
- The King James Mistakes Lucifer as Satan
- Accurate Account on how did Christianity Began?
- Bill Zuersher and his book “Seeing through Christianity: A Critique of Beliefs and Evidence”
- Archaeology Disproves the Bible
- I Believe Archaeology, not Myths & Why Not, as the Religious Myths Already Violate Reason!
- Did a Volcano Inspire the bible god?
- Bible Battle, Just More, Bible Babble
- The Jericho Conquest lie?
- Traces of Totemism In Judaism
- Canaanites and Israelites?
- Accurate Account on how did Christianity Began?
- Christian 35 years, read the bible twice, and took two religious classes before the conclusion of atheism.
- Compare and Contrast (religious and non-religious)
- Losing My Religion and MY Faith Addiction
- A Christian supporter, Damien Marie AtHope is winning fans but dredging up Old Adversaries?
- christofascism (christian and fascism) as well as religiofascism (religion and fascism)
- What makes Atheism a better way of thinking in life?
- Damien, I’m open AND a Christian!
- Incapable of making a decision on if there is or not a god?
- It’s Not the Deity You See as Possible But How Many You Reject
- Christians Don’t Believe the Entire Bible
- Muslim Terrorists and Christian Terrorists?
- True Christian® ???
- What is bible and Who is jesus???
- Rethinking Jesus?
- Jesus Christ Wanted for producing the hate and fear literature, the so-called “Holy Bible?”
- The Bible shows a racist character of jESUS who was not god but was a bigot “if real”
- jESUS (a fake story) explained as a real bigot but not a gOD
- The bible god Myth is Not True but The Prejudice is.
- Paulism vs Jesus
- Please explain why anyone would follow jesus’ teachings?
- Christianity Believers: Consider This
- Let’s talk about Christianity.
- Misinformed christian
- Dealing with Presuppositionalism, a school of Christian apologetics (Fascistic Fideism or “faith-ism”)
- Bible Defender?
- How Caring and Unconditionally Loving is the bible god Character?
- The So-Called Love of bible god is Actually a Pseudo Love.
- Sexism in Christianity (New Testament)
- New Testament: bigotry, cruelty, sexism, slavery, racism, etc.
- Slavery, Racism, Religion and the Confederate Flag
- New Testament on Slavery
- Rape, Sexism, and Religion?
- Was the Value of Ancient Women Different?
- Sexism in the BIBLE: chapter and verse!
- Sexism in Catholicism
- Sexism in Protestantism
- Sexism in Mormonism
- Sexism in Jehovah Witness
- Feminist atheists as far back as the 1800s?
- Anti-theism makes no logical sense?
- Out of Africa: “the evolution of religion seems tied to the movement of people”
- The Evolution of Religion and Removing the Rationale of Faith
- Explaining My thoughts on the Evolution of Religion
- Speech on the Evolution of Religion & Religious Sexism
- Understanding Religion Evolution: Animism, Totemism, Shamanism, Paganism & Progressed organized religion
- Addressing a Theistic Philosopher with Fallacious Thinking
- Caring firebrand atheism vs. Christian nationalism and dominionism
- Caring Firebrand Axiological Atheist, Antitheist, and Antireligionist as a Valuized Ethical Duty.
- Firebrand Atheist Dealing with Christian, Threat Prayers
- “Damien, you are a strong atheist. I am wondering do you see yourself as better than theists?”
- Warning Churchs, I am coming to Indiana as a firebrand atheist to do activism.
- Thoughts on Death: Christian turned Atheist
- Let’s talk about Hell
- Hell claims debunk LOVING gods?
- The claim of hell are ridiculous and immoral, not just false.
- Debunking both Positive (HEAVEN) and Negative (HELL) near death experiences.
- Near Death Experiences is Brain Activity, not Supernatural
- Hell is not a source of science, Satan says
- Threats of Hell are Humanistically Wrong
- Hell, Heaven and the Power of Imagination.
- Preposterous Idea of a Deity that Would Create Hell
- Scary Beasts In Heaven?
- Value-blindness Gives Rise to Sociopathic evil.
- Axiological Ethics not Pseudo Morality
- Yes, Your Male God is Ridiculous
- Single God Religions (Monotheism) = Man-o-theism started around 4,000 years ago?
- Kultepe? An archaeological site with a 4,000 years old women’s rights document.
- Religion is Conspiracy Theories of Reality, Not Worth Believing In
- I Hate Religion Just as I Hate all Pseudoscience
- Sumerian Creator Being was a Female, not Male possibly around 6,000 years ago or more
- The Disproof Atheism Society: EMPIRICAL, CONCEPTUAL, and DISPROOFS of gOD
- I Blaspheme the Unreal Unholy Bible Spirit called gOD
- When you say “GOD,” what do you mean by god?
- Who knows what a “god-claim” really is?
- Fibonacci sequence as scientific evidence of a creator?
- Sorry You Have No Evidence
- god Claims are a Non-Reality Commodity
- What do you mean by god Evidence?
- You will always fail to prove a specific god?
- Arguments over the term god?
- Vague Theism or god Somethingism: just say NO
- Faith is Not Evidence of Reality
- What is a gOD Challenge
- Addressing “ATHEISM”, reasons for it and its possible types/styles
- Using Ontology to Attack Theistic Errors
- You say you believe in a possibility of your favored god-claim?
- Why are all gods unjustified?
- What is a god? Just a Empty Label.
- gOD Believer, Pease Think Critically
- The God Fallacy
- Religion and Science are Completely Different Epistemologies
- Doubt god(s)? No, I stopped believing Fairytales.
- Damien, is it possible, there’s a God you haven’t considered?
- Archaeological, Scientific, & Philosophic evidence shows the god myth is man-made nonsense.
- I am an Axiological Atheist, with a Rationalist Persuasion, who Supports Anarcho-Humanism
- Fideism/Faith-ism (“faith-drunk-thinkers”)
- Truth Navigation and the fallacy of Fideism “faith-ism”
- Interview with the editor for Canadian Atheist
- Interview EP (55) Mark Lee secular humanist agnostic atheist activist antitheist from Kelowna, British Columbia (Canada)
- Guest post: Atheism’s Conclusion by Rational Thinking” by Marquis Amon
- Atheophobia and a Challenger to the Term
- Talking Atheism: Arael Avinu of Fully DE/converted and Caring Firebrand Atheist, Damien Marie AtHope
- Rationalism and the Enlightenment
- Challenging Agnosticism Assumptions
- The Fun of Harassing Street Preachers. Counter-Protesting is Fun.
- Religion harm and a way to stop it’s Rights Violations?
- Turning a Theist Attack into a Chance for Their New Learning: “an open dialog”
- Freedom of Religion, not Coercive Hereditary Religion
- Self-ownership, Human Rights, and Societal Liberty or Freedoms
- Self-ownership/Body-ownership: Sexual Consent, Abortion, Genital Mutilation, Prostitution, Drugs, and the Right to Die
- “No gODs, No Masters”
- Screw All Religions and Their Toxic lies, they are all fraud
- A Rational Mind Values Humanity and Rejects Religion and Gods
- CRITICAL THINKING: Discernment Detachment Delineation
- No Worship No Bullshit
- The Beginning origins of Atheistic Doubt at least by around 2,500 years ago.
- Confusions in Atheism and Humanism
- How Do I Gain a Morality Persuasion or Make a Change to it?
- Variations of Human Interaction: ethical, unethical, good, bad, or evil?
- THE SOUL OF LIBERTY: “The Universal Ethic of Freedom and Human Rights” By Fred E. Foldvary
- “My correspondence with a believer in souls”
- Energy = god, spirits, and/or afterlife? NO, and such thinking is misplaced animism magical thinking nonsense.
- Damien, What’s Worse Christians or Spiritual Non-religious?
- Religion and Poverty?
- Prosperity theology: donating money increases wealth?
- As an atheist what do you believe happens when you die?
- Grief While Having Atheistic Disbelief
- Religious OCD Subtype?
- Religious Trauma Syndrome?
- “You” are religious “You” are in a cult!
- Addressing Destructive Cults?
I see you, “Religion”, resisting needed correction, to your unscientific supernatural theorizing. And thanks for having our backs Science, by being willing to address needed changes relational to the most valid and reliable reason and evidence.
People don’t commonly teach religious history, even that of their own claimed religion. No, rather they teach a limited “pro their religion” history of their religion from a religious perspective favorable to the religion of choice.
Do you truly think “Religious Belief” is only a matter of some personal choice?
Do you not see how coercive one’s world of choice is limited to the obvious hereditary belief, in most religious choices available to the child of religious parents or caregivers? Religion is more commonly like a family, culture, society, etc. available belief that limits the belief choices of the child and that is when “Religious Belief” is not only a matter of some personal choice and when it becomes hereditary faith, not because of the quality of its alleged facts or proposed truths but because everyone else important to the child believes similarly so they do as well simply mimicking authority beliefs handed to them. Because children are raised in religion rather than being presented all possible choices but rather one limited dogmatic brand of “Religious Belief” where children only have a choice of following the belief as instructed, and then personally claim the faith hereditary belief seen in the confirming to the belief they have held themselves all their lives. This is obvious in statements asked and answered by children claiming a faith they barely understand but they do understand that their family believes “this or that” faith, so they feel obligated to believe it too. While I do agree that “Religious Belief” should only be a matter of some personal choice, it rarely is… End Hereditary Religion!
Animism: Respecting the Living World by Graham Harvey
“How have human cultures engaged with and thought about animals, plants, rocks, clouds, and other elements in their natural surroundings? Do animals and other natural objects have a spirit or soul? What is their relationship to humans? In this new study, Graham Harvey explores current and past animistic beliefs and practices of Native Americans, Maori, Aboriginal Australians, and eco-pagans. He considers the varieties of animism found in these cultures as well as their shared desire to live respectfully within larger natural communities. Drawing on his extensive casework, Harvey also considers the linguistic, performative, ecological, and activist implications of these different animisms.” ref
We are like believing machines we vacuum up ideas, like Velcro sticks to almost everything. We accumulate beliefs that we allow to negatively influence our lives, often without realizing it. Our willingness must be to alter skewed beliefs that impend our balance or reason, which allows us to achieve new positive thinking and accurate outcomes.
My thoughts on Religion Evolution with external links for more info:
- (Pre-Animism Africa mainly, but also Europe, and Asia at least 300,000 years ago), (Pre-Animism – Oxford Dictionaries)
- (Animism Africa around 100,000 years ago), (Animism – Britannica.com)
- (Totemism Europe around 50,000 years ago), (Totemism – Anthropology)
- (Shamanism Siberia around 30,000 years ago), (Shamanism – Britannica.com)
- (Paganism Turkey around 12,000 years ago), (Paganism – BBC Religion)
- (Progressed Organized Religion “Institutional Religion” Egypt around 5,000 years ago), (Ancient Egyptian Religion – Britannica.com)
- (CURRENT “World” RELIGIONS after 4,000 years ago) (Origin of Major Religions – Sacred Texts)
- (Early Atheistic Doubting at least by 2,600 years ago) (History of Atheism – Wikipedia)
“Religion is an Evolved Product” and Yes, Religion is Like Fear Given Wings…
Atheists talk about gods and religions for the same reason doctors talk about cancer, they are looking for a cure, or a firefighter talks about fires because they burn people and they care to stop them. We atheists too often feel a need to help the victims of mental slavery, held in the bondage that is the false beliefs of gods and the conspiracy theories of reality found in religions.
Understanding Religion Evolution:
- Pre-Animism (at least 300,000 years ago)
- Animism (Africa: 100,000 years ago)
- Totemism (Europe: 50,000 years ago)
- Shamanism (Siberia: 30,000 years ago)
- Paganism (Turkey: 12,000 years ago)
- Progressed organized religion (Egypt: 5,000 years ago), (Egypt, the First Dynasty 5,150 years ago)
- CURRENT “World” RELIGIONS (after 4,000 years ago)
- Early Atheistic Doubting (at least by 2,600 years ago)
“An Archaeological/Anthropological Understanding of Religion Evolution”
It seems ancient peoples had to survived amazing threats in a “dangerous universe (by superstition perceived as good and evil),” and human “immorality or imperfection of the soul” which was thought to affect the still living, leading to ancestor worship. This ancestor worship presumably led to the belief in supernatural beings, and then some of these were turned into the belief in gods. This feeble myth called gods were just a human conceived “made from nothing into something over and over, changing, again and again, taking on more as they evolve, all the while they are thought to be special,” but it is just supernatural animistic spirit-belief perceived as sacred.
Quick Evolution of Religion?
Pre-Animism (at least 300,000 years ago) pre-religion is a beginning that evolves into later Animism. So, Religion as we think of it, to me, all starts in a general way with Animism (Africa: 100,000 years ago) (theoretical belief in supernatural powers/spirits), then this is physically expressed in or with Totemism (Europe: 50,000 years ago) (theoretical belief in mythical relationship with powers/spirits through a totem item), which then enlists a full-time specific person to do this worship and believed interacting Shamanism (Siberia/Russia: 30,000 years ago) (theoretical belief in access and influence with spirits through ritual), and then there is the further employment of myths and gods added to all the above giving you Paganism (Turkey: 12,000 years ago) (often a lot more nature-based than most current top world religions, thus hinting to their close link to more ancient religious thinking it stems from). My hypothesis is expressed with an explanation of the building of a theatrical house (modern religions development). Progressed organized religion (Egypt: 5,000 years ago) with CURRENT “World” RELIGIONS (after 4,000 years ago).
Historically, in large city-state societies (such as Egypt or Iraq) starting around 5,000 years ago culminated to make religion something kind of new, a sociocultural-governmental-religious monarchy, where all or at least many of the people of such large city-state societies seem familiar with and committed to the existence of “religion” as the integrated life identity package of control dynamics with a fixed closed magical doctrine, but this juggernaut integrated religion identity package of Dogmatic-Propaganda certainly did not exist or if developed to an extent it was highly limited in most smaller prehistoric societies as they seem to lack most of the strong control dynamics with a fixed closed magical doctrine (magical beliefs could be at times be added or removed). Many people just want to see developed religious dynamics everywhere even if it is not. Instead, all that is found is largely fragments until the domestication of religion.
Religions, as we think of them today, are a new fad, even if they go back to around 6,000 years in the timeline of human existence, this amounts to almost nothing when seen in the long slow evolution of religion at least around 70,000 years ago with one of the oldest ritual worship. Stone Snake of South Africa: “first human worship” 70,000 years ago. This message of how religion and gods among them are clearly a man-made thing that was developed slowly as it was invented and then implemented peace by peace discrediting them all. Which seems to be a simple point some are just not grasping how devastating to any claims of truth when we can see the lie clearly in the archeological sites.
I wish people fought as hard for the actual values as they fight for the group/clan names political or otherwise they think support values. Every amount spent on war is theft to children in need of food or the homeless kept from shelter.
Here are several of my blog posts on history:
- To Find Truth You Must First Look
- (Magdalenian/Iberomaurusian) Connections to the First Paganists of the early Neolithic Near East Dating from around 17,000 to 12,000 Years Ago
- Natufians: an Ancient People at the Origins of Agriculture and Sedentary Life
- Possible Clan Leader/Special “MALE” Ancestor Totem Poles At Least 13,500 years ago?
- Jewish People with DNA at least 13,200 years old, Judaism, and the Origins of Some of its Ideas
- Baltic Reindeer Hunters: Swiderian, Lyngby, Ahrensburgian, and Krasnosillya cultures 12,020 to 11,020 years ago are evidence of powerful migratory waves during the last 13,000 years and a genetic link to Saami and the Finno-Ugric peoples.
- The Rise of Inequality: patriarchy and state hierarchy inequality
- Fertile Crescent 12,500 – 9,500 Years Ago: fertility and death cult belief system?
- 12,400 – 11,700 Years Ago – Kortik Tepe (Turkey) Pre/early-Agriculture Cultic Ritualism
- Ritualistic Bird Symbolism at Gobekli Tepe and its “Ancestor Cult”
- Male-Homosexual (female-like) / Trans-woman (female) Seated Figurine from Gobekli Tepe
- Could a 12,000-year-old Bull Geoglyph at Göbekli Tepe relate to older Bull and Female Art 25,000 years ago and Later Goddess and the Bull cults like Catal Huyuk?
- Sedentism and the Creation of goddesses around 12,000 years ago as well as male gods after 7,000 years ago.
- Alcohol, where Agriculture and Religion Become one? Such as Gobekli Tepe’s Ritualistic use of Grain as Food and Ritual Drink
- Neolithic Ritual Sites with T-Pillars and other Cultic Pillars
- Paganism: Goddesses around 12,000 years ago then Male Gods after 7,000 years ago
- First Patriarchy: Split of Women’s Status around 12,000 years ago & First Hierarchy: fall of Women’s Status around 5,000 years ago.
- Natufians: an Ancient People at the Origins of Agriculture and Sedentary Life
- J DNA and the Spread of Agricultural Religion (paganism)
- Paganism: an approximately 12,000-year-old belief system
- Paganism 12,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Pre-Capitalism)
- Shaman burial in Israel 12,000 years ago and the Shamanism Phenomena
- Need to Mythicized: gods and goddesses
- 12,000 – 7,000 Years Ago – Paleo-Indian Culture (The Americas)
- 12,000 – 2,000 Years Ago – Indigenous-Scandinavians (Nordic)
- Norse did not wear helmets with horns?
- Pre-Pottery Neolithic Skull Cult around 11,500 to 8,400 Years Ago?
- 10,400 – 10,100 Years Ago, in Turkey the Nevail Cori Religious Settlement
- 9,000-6,500 Years Old Submerged Pre-Pottery/Pottery Neolithic Ritual Settlements off Israel’s Coast
- Catal Huyuk “first religious designed city” around 9,500 to 7,700 years ago (Turkey)
- Cultic Hunting at Catal Huyuk “first religious designed city”
- Special Items and Art as well as Special Elite Burials at Catal Huyuk
- New Rituals and Violence with the appearance of Pottery and People?
- Haplogroup N and its related Uralic Languages and Cultures
- Ainu people, Sámi people, Native Americans, the Ancient North Eurasians, and Paganistic-Shamanism with Totemism
- Ideas, Technology and People from Turkey, Europe, to China and Back again 9,000 to 5,000 years ago?
- First Pottery of Europe and the Related Cultures
- 9,000 years old Neolithic Artifacts Judean Desert and Hills Israel
- 9,000-7,000 years-old Sex and Death Rituals: Cult Sites in Israel, Jordan, and the Sinai
- 9,000-8500 year old Horned Female shaman Bad Dürrenberg Germany
- Neolithic Jewelry and the Spread of Farming in Europe Emerging out of West Turkey
- 8,600-year-old Tortoise Shells in Neolithic graves in central China have Early Writing and Shamanism
- Swing of the Mace: the rise of Elite, Forced Authority, and Inequality begin to Emerge 8,500 years ago?
- Migrations and Changing Europeans Beginning around 8,000 Years Ago
- My “Steppe-Anatolian-Kurgan hypothesis” 8,000/7,000 years ago
- Around 8,000-year-old Shared Idea of the Mistress of Animals, “Ritual” Motif
- Pre-Columbian Red-Paint (red ochre) Maritime Archaic Culture 8,000-3,000 years ago
- 7,522-6,522 years ago Linear Pottery culture which I think relates to Arcane Capitalism’s origins
- Arcane Capitalism: Primitive socialism, Primitive capital, Private ownership, Means of production, Market capitalism, Class discrimination, and Petite bourgeoisie (smaller capitalists)
- 7,500-4,750 years old Ritualistic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture of Moldova, Romania, and Ukraine
- Roots of a changing early society 7,200-6,700 years ago Jordan and Israel
- Agriculture religion (Paganism) with farming reached Britain between about 7,000 to 6,500 or so years ago and seemingly expressed in things like Western Europe’s Long Barrows
- My Thoughts on Possible Migrations of “R” DNA and Proto-Indo-European?
- “Millet” Spreading from China 7,022 years ago to Europe and related Language may have Spread with it leading to Proto-Indo-European
- Proto-Indo-European (PIE), ancestor of Indo-European languages: DNA, Society, Language, and Mythology
- The Dnieper–Donets culture and Asian varieties of Millet from China to the Black Sea region of Europe by 7,022 years ago
- Kurgan 6,000 years ago/dolmens 7,000 years ago: funeral, ritual, and other?
- 7,020 to 6,020-year-old Proto-Indo-European Homeland of Urheimat or proposed home of their Language and Religion
- Ancient Megaliths: Kurgan, Ziggurat, Pyramid, Menhir, Trilithon, Dolman, Kromlech, and Kromlech of Trilithons
- The Mytheme of Ancient North Eurasian Sacred-Dog belief and similar motifs are found in Indo-European, Native American, and Siberian comparative mythology
- Elite Power Accumulation: Ancient Trade, Tokens, Writing, Wealth, Merchants, and Priest-Kings
- Sacred Mounds, Mountains, Kurgans, and Pyramids may hold deep connections?
- Between 7,000-5,000 Years ago, rise of unequal hierarchy elite, leading to a “birth of the State” or worship of power, strong new sexism, oppression of non-elites, and the fall of Women’s equal status
- Paganism 7,000-5,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Capitalism) (World War 0) Elite & their slaves
- Hell and Underworld mythologies starting maybe as far back as 7,000 to 5,000 years ago with the Proto-Indo-Europeans?
- The First Expression of the Male God around 7,000 years ago?
- White (light complexion skin) Bigotry and Sexism started 7,000 years ago?
- Around 7,000-year-old Shared Idea of the Divine Bird (Tutelary and/or Trickster spirit/deity), “Ritual” Motif
- Nekhbet an Ancient Egyptian Vulture Goddess and Tutelary Deity
- 6,720 to 4,920 years old Ritualistic Hongshan Culture of Inner Mongolia with 5,000-year-old Pyramid Mounds and Temples
- First proto-king in the Balkans, Varna culture around 6,500 years ago?
- 6,500–5,800 years ago in Israel Late Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Period in the Southern Levant Seems to Express Northern Levant Migrations, Cultural and Religious Transfer
- KING OF BEASTS: Master of Animals “Ritual” Motif, around 6,000 years old or older…
- Around 6000-year-old Shared Idea of the Solid Wheel & the Spoked Wheel-Shaped Ritual Motif
- “The Ghassulian Star,” a mysterious 6,000-year-old mural from Jordan; a Proto-Star of Ishtar, Star of Inanna or Star of Venus?
- Religious/Ritual Ideas, including goddesses and gods as well as ritual mounds or pyramids from Northeastern Asia at least 6,000 years old, seemingly filtering to Iran, Iraq, the Mediterranean, Europe, Egypt, and the Americas?
- Maykop (5,720–5,020 years ago) Caucasus region Bronze Age culture-related to Copper Age farmers from the south, influenced by the Ubaid period and Leyla-Tepe culture, as well as influencing the Kura-Araxes culture
- 5-600-year-old Tomb, Mummy, and First Bearded Male Figurine in a Grave
- Kura-Araxes Cultural 5,520 to 4,470 years old DNA traces to the Canaanites, Arabs, and Jews
- Minoan/Cretan (Keftiu) Civilization and Religion around 5,520 to 3,120 years ago
- Evolution Of Science at least by 5,500 years ago
- 5,500 Years old birth of the State, the rise of Hierarchy, and the fall of Women’s status
- “Jiroft culture” 5,100 – 4,200 years ago and the History of Iran
- Stonehenge: Paganistic Burial and Astrological Ritual Complex, England (5,100-3,600 years ago)
- Around 5,000-year-old Shared Idea of the “Tree of Life” Ritual Motif
- Complex rituals for elite, seen from China to Egypt, at least by 5,000 years ago
- Around 5,000 years ago: “Birth of the State” where Religion gets Military Power and Influence
- The Center of the World “Axis Mundi” and/or “Sacred Mountains” Mythology Could Relate to the Altai Mountains, Heart of the Steppe
- Progressed organized religion starts, an approximately 5,000-year-old belief system
- China’s Civilization between 5,000-3,000 years ago, was a time of war and class struggle, violent transition from free clans to a Slave or Elite society
- Origin of Logics is Naturalistic Observation at least by around 5,000 years ago.
- Paganism 5,000 years old: progressed organized religion and the state: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Kings and the Rise of the State)
- Ziggurats (multi-platform temples: 4,900 years old) to Pyramids (multi-platform tombs: 4,700 years old)
- Did a 4,520–4,420-year-old Volcano In Turkey Inspire the Bible God?
- Finland’s Horned Shaman and Pre-Horned-God at least 4,500 years ago?
- 4,000-year-Old Dolmens in Israel: A Connected Dolmen Religious Phenomenon?
- Creation myths: From chaos, Ex nihilo, Earth-diver, Emergence, World egg, and World parent
- Bronze Age “Ritual” connections of the Bell Beaker culture with the Corded Ware/Single Grave culture, which were related to the Yamnaya culture and Proto-Indo-European Languages/Religions
- Low Gods (Earth/ Tutelary deity), High Gods (Sky/Supreme deity), and Moralistic Gods (Deity enforcement/divine order)
- The exchange of people, ideas, and material-culture including, to me, the new god (Sky Father) and goddess (Earth Mother) religion between the Cucuteni-Trypillians and others which is then spread far and wide
- Koryaks: Indigenous People of the Russian Far East and Big Raven myths also found in Tlingit, Haida, Tsimshian, and other Indigenous People of North America
- 42 Principles Of Maat (Egyptian Goddess of the justice) around 4,400 years ago, 2000 Years Before Ten Commandments
- “Happy Easter” Well Happy Eostre/Ishter
- 4,320-3,820 years old “Shimao” (North China) site with Totemistic-Shamanistic Paganism and a Stepped Pyramid
- 4,250 to 3,400 Year old Stonehenge from Russia: Arkaim?
- 4,100-year-old beaker with medicinal & flowering plants in a grave of a woman in Scotland
- Early European Farmer ancestry, Kelif el Boroud people with the Cardial Ware culture, and the Bell Beaker culture Paganists too, spread into North Africa, then to the Canary Islands off West Africa
- Flood Accounts: Gilgamesh epic (4,100 years ago) Noah in Genesis (2,600 years ago)
- Paganism 4,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (First Moralistic gods, then the Origin time of Monotheism)
- When was the beginning: TIMELINE OF CURRENT RELIGIONS, which start around 4,000 years ago.
- Early Religions Thought to Express Proto-Monotheistic Systems around 4,000 years ago
- Kultepe? An archaeological site with a 4,000 years old women’s rights document.
- Single God Religions (Monotheism) = “Man-o-theism” started around 4,000 years ago with the Great Sky Spirit/God Tiān (天)?
- Confucianism’s Tiān (Shangdi god 4,000 years old): Supernaturalism, Pantheism or Theism?
- Yes, Your Male God is Ridiculous
- Mythology, a Lunar Deity is a Goddess or God of the Moon
- Sacred Land, Hills, and Mountains: Sami Mythology (Paganistic Shamanism)
- Horse Worship/Sacrifice: mythical union of Ruling Elite/Kingship and the Horse
- The Amorite/Amurru people’s God Amurru “Lord of the Steppe”, relates to the Origins of the Bible God?
- Bronze Age Exotic Trade Routes Spread Quite Far as well as Spread Religious Ideas with Them
- Sami and the Northern Indigenous Peoples Landscape, Language, and its Connection to Religion
- Prototype of Ancient Analemmatic Sundials around 3,900-3,150 years ago and a Possible Solar Connection to gods?
- Judaism is around 3,450 or 3,250 years old. (“Paleo-Hebrew” 3,000 years ago and Torah 2,500 years ago)
- The Weakening of Ancient Trade and the Strengthening of Religions around 3000 years ago?
- Are you aware that there are religions that worship women gods, explain now religion tears women down?
- Animistic, Totemistic, and Paganistic Superstition Origins of bible god and the bible’s Religion.
- Myths and Folklore: “Trickster gods and goddesses”
- Jews, Judaism, and the Origins of Some of its Ideas
- An Old Branch of Religion Still Giving Fruit: Sacred Trees
- Dating the BIBLE: naming names and telling times (written less than 3,000 years ago, provable to 2,200 years ago)
- Did a Volcano Inspire the bible god?
- Dené–Yeniseian language, Old Copper Complex, and Pre-Columbian Mound Builders?
- No “dinosaurs and humans didn’t exist together just because some think they are in the bible itself”
- Sacred Shit and Sacred Animals?
- Everyone Killed in the Bible Flood? “Nephilim” (giants)?
- Hey, Damien dude, I have a question for you regarding “the bible” Exodus.
- Archaeology Disproves the Bible
- Bible Battle, Just More, Bible Babble
- The Jericho Conquest lie?
- Canaanites and Israelites?
- Accurate Account on how did Christianity Began?
- Let’s talk about Christianity.
- So the 10 commandments isn’t anything to go by either right?
- Misinformed christian
- Debunking Jesus?
- Paulism vs Jesus
- Ok, you seem confused so let’s talk about Buddhism.
- Unacknowledged Buddhism: Gods, Savior, Demons, Rebirth, Heavens, Hells, and Terrorism
- His Foolishness The Dalai Lama
- Yin and Yang is sexist with an ORIGIN around 2,300 years ago?
- I Believe Archaeology, not Myths & Why Not, as the Religious Myths Already Violate Reason!
- Archaeological, Scientific, & Philosophic evidence shows the god myth is man-made nonsense.
- Aquatic Ape Theory/Hypothesis? As Always, Just Pseudoscience.
- Ancient Aliens Conspiracy Theorists are Pseudohistorians
- The Pseudohistoric and Pseudoscientific claims about “Bakoni Ruins” of South Africa
- Why do people think Religion is much more than supernaturalism and superstitionism?
- Religion is an Evolved Product
- Was the Value of Ancient Women Different?
- 1000 to 1100 CE, human sacrifice Cahokia Mounds a pre-Columbian Native American site
- Feminist atheists as far back as the 1800s?
- Promoting Religion as Real is Mentally Harmful to a Flourishing Humanity
- Screw All Religions and Their Toxic lies, they are all fraud
- Forget Religions’ Unfounded Myths, I Have Substantiated “Archaeology Facts.”
- Religion Dispersal throughout the World
- I Hate Religion Just as I Hate all Pseudoscience
- Exposing Scientology, Eckankar, Wicca and Other Nonsense?
- Main deity or religious belief systems
- Quit Trying to Invent Your God From the Scraps of Science.
- Archaeological, Scientific, & Philosophic evidence shows the god myth is man-made nonsense.
- Ancient Alien Conspiracy Theorists: Misunderstanding, Rhetoric, Misinformation, Fabrications, and Lies
- Misinformation, Distortion, and Pseudoscience in Talking with a Christian Creationist
- Judging the Lack of Goodness in Gods, Even the Norse God Odin
- Challenging the Belief in God-like Aliens and Gods in General
- A Challenge to Christian use of Torture Devices?
- Yes, Hinduism is a Religion
- Trump is One of the Most Reactionary Forces of Far-right Christian Extremism
- Was the Bull Head a Symbol of God? Yes!
- Primate Death Rituals
- Christian – “God and Christianity are objectively true”
- Australopithecus afarensis Death Ritual?
- You Claim Global Warming is a Hoax?
- Doubter of Science and Defamer of Atheists?
- I think that sounds like the Bible?
- History of the Antifa (“anti-fascist”) Movements
- Indianapolis Anti-Blasphemy Laws #Free Soheil Rally
- Damien, you repeat the golden rule in so many forms then you say religion is dogmatic?
- Science is a Trustable Methodology whereas Faith is not Trustable at all!
- Was I ever a believer, before I was an atheist?
- Atheists rise in reason
- Mistrust of science?
- Open to Talking About the Definition of ‘God’? But first, we address Faith.
- ‘United Monarchy’ full of splendor and power – Saul, David, and Solomon? Most likely not.
- Is there EXODUS ARCHAEOLOGY? The short answer is “no.”
- Lacking Proof of Bigfoots, Unicorns, and Gods is Just a Lack of Research?
- Religion and Politics: Faith Beliefs vs. Rational Thinking
- Hammer of Truth that lying pig RELIGION: challenged by an archaeologist
- “The Hammer of Truth” -ontology question- What do You Mean by That?
- Navigation of a bad argument: Ad Hominem vs. Attack
- Why is it Often Claimed that Gods have a Gender?
- Why are basically all monotheistic religions ones that have a male god?
- Shifting through the Claims in support of Faith
- Dear Mr. AtHope, The 20th Century is an Indictment of Secularism and a Failed Atheist Century
- An Understanding of the Worldwide Statistics and Dynamics of Terrorist Incidents and Suicide Attacks
- Intoxication and Evolution? Addressing and Assessing the “Stoned Ape” or “Drunken Monkey” Theories as Catalysts in Human Evolution
- Sacred Menstrual cloth? Inanna’s knot, Isis knot, and maybe Ma’at’s feather?
- Damien, why don’t the Hebrews accept the bible stories?
- Dealing with a Troll and Arguing Over Word Meaning
- Knowledge without Belief? Justified beliefs or disbeliefs worthy of Knowledge?
- Afrocentrism and African Religions
- Crecganford @crecganford offers history & stories of the people, places, gods, & culture
- Empiricism-Denier?
I am not an academic. I am a revolutionary that teaches in public, in places like social media, and in the streets. I am not a leader by some title given but from my commanding leadership style of simply to start teaching everywhere to everyone, all manner of positive education.
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Low Gods “Earth” or Tutelary deity and High Gods “Sky” or Supreme deity
“An Earth goddess is a deification of the Earth. Earth goddesses are often associated with the “chthonic” deities of the underworld. Ki and Ninhursag are Mesopotamian earth goddesses. In Greek mythology, the Earth is personified as Gaia, corresponding to Roman Terra, Indic Prithvi/Bhūmi, etc. traced to an “Earth Mother” complementary to the “Sky Father” in Proto-Indo-European religion. Egyptian mythology exceptionally has a sky goddess and an Earth god.” ref
“A mother goddess is a goddess who represents or is a personification of nature, motherhood, fertility, creation, destruction or who embodies the bounty of the Earth. When equated with the Earth or the natural world, such goddesses are sometimes referred to as Mother Earth or as the Earth Mother. In some religious traditions or movements, Heavenly Mother (also referred to as Mother in Heaven or Sky Mother) is the wife or feminine counterpart of the Sky father or God the Father.” ref
“Any masculine sky god is often also king of the gods, taking the position of patriarch within a pantheon. Such king gods are collectively categorized as “sky father” deities, with a polarity between sky and earth often being expressed by pairing a “sky father” god with an “earth mother” goddess (pairings of a sky mother with an earth father are less frequent). A main sky goddess is often the queen of the gods and may be an air/sky goddess in her own right, though she usually has other functions as well with “sky” not being her main. In antiquity, several sky goddesses in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Near East were called Queen of Heaven. Neopagans often apply it with impunity to sky goddesses from other regions who were never associated with the term historically. The sky often has important religious significance. Many religions, both polytheistic and monotheistic, have deities associated with the sky.” ref
“In comparative mythology, sky father is a term for a recurring concept in polytheistic religions of a sky god who is addressed as a “father”, often the father of a pantheon and is often either a reigning or former King of the Gods. The concept of “sky father” may also be taken to include Sun gods with similar characteristics, such as Ra. The concept is complementary to an “earth mother“. “Sky Father” is a direct translation of the Vedic Dyaus Pita, etymologically descended from the same Proto-Indo-European deity name as the Greek Zeûs Pater and Roman Jupiter and Germanic Týr, Tir or Tiwaz, all of which are reflexes of the same Proto-Indo-European deity’s name, *Dyēus Ph₂tḗr. While there are numerous parallels adduced from outside of Indo-European mythology, there are exceptions (e.g. In Egyptian mythology, Nut is the sky mother and Geb is the earth father).” ref
Tutelary deity
“A tutelary (also tutelar) is a deity or spirit who is a guardian, patron, or protector of a particular place, geographic feature, person, lineage, nation, culture, or occupation. The etymology of “tutelary” expresses the concept of safety and thus of guardianship. In late Greek and Roman religion, one type of tutelary deity, the genius, functions as the personal deity or daimon of an individual from birth to death. Another form of personal tutelary spirit is the familiar spirit of European folklore.” ref
“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Korean shamanism, jangseung and sotdae were placed at the edge of villages to frighten off demons. They were also worshiped as deities. Seonangshin is the patron deity of the village in Korean tradition and was believed to embody the Seonangdang. In Philippine animism, Diwata or Lambana are deities or spirits that inhabit sacred places like mountains and mounds and serve as guardians. Such as: Maria Makiling is the deity who guards Mt. Makiling and Maria Cacao and Maria Sinukuan. In Shinto, the spirits, or kami, which give life to human bodies come from nature and return to it after death. Ancestors are therefore themselves tutelaries to be worshiped. And similarly, Native American beliefs such as Tonás, tutelary animal spirit among the Zapotec and Totems, familial or clan spirits among the Ojibwe, can be animals.” ref
“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Austronesian beliefs such as: Atua (gods and spirits of the Polynesian peoples such as the Māori or the Hawaiians), Hanitu (Bunun of Taiwan‘s term for spirit), Hyang (Kawi, Sundanese, Javanese, and Balinese Supreme Being, in ancient Java and Bali mythology and this spiritual entity, can be either divine or ancestral), Kaitiaki (New Zealand Māori term used for the concept of guardianship, for the sky, the sea, and the land), Kawas (mythology) (divided into 6 groups: gods, ancestors, souls of the living, spirits of living things, spirits of lifeless objects, and ghosts), Tiki (Māori mythology, Tiki is the first man created by either Tūmatauenga or Tāne and represents deified ancestors found in most Polynesian cultures). ” ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref
Mesopotamian Tutelary Deities can be seen as ones related to City-States
“Historical city-states included Sumerian cities such as Uruk and Ur; Ancient Egyptian city-states, such as Thebes and Memphis; the Phoenician cities (such as Tyre and Sidon); the five Philistine city-states; the Berber city-states of the Garamantes; the city-states of ancient Greece (the poleis such as Athens, Sparta, Thebes, and Corinth); the Roman Republic (which grew from a city-state into a vast empire); the Italian city-states from the Middle Ages to the early modern period, such as Florence, Siena, Ferrara, Milan (which as they grew in power began to dominate neighboring cities) and Genoa and Venice, which became powerful thalassocracies; the Mayan and other cultures of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica (including cities such as Chichen Itza, Tikal, Copán and Monte Albán); the central Asian cities along the Silk Road; the city-states of the Swahili coast; Ragusa; states of the medieval Russian lands such as Novgorod and Pskov; and many others.” ref
“The Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BCE; also known as Protoliterate period) of Mesopotamia, named after the Sumerian city of Uruk, this period saw the emergence of urban life in Mesopotamia and the Sumerian civilization. City-States like Uruk and others had a patron tutelary City Deity along with a Priest-King.” ref
“Chinese folk religion, both past, and present, includes myriad tutelary deities. Exceptional individuals, highly cultivated sages, and prominent ancestors can be deified and honored after death. Lord Guan is the patron of military personnel and police, while Mazu is the patron of fishermen and sailors. Such as Tu Di Gong (Earth Deity) is the tutelary deity of a locality, and each individual locality has its own Earth Deity and Cheng Huang Gong (City God) is the guardian deity of an individual city, worshipped by local officials and locals since imperial times.” ref
“A tutelary (also tutelar) in Hinduism, personal tutelary deities are known as ishta-devata, while family tutelary deities are known as Kuladevata. Gramadevata are guardian deities of villages. Devas can also be seen as tutelary. Shiva is the patron of yogis and renunciants. City goddesses include: Mumbadevi (Mumbai), Sachchika (Osian); Kuladevis include: Ambika (Porwad), and Mahalakshmi. In NorthEast India Meitei mythology and religion (Sanamahism) of Manipur, there are various types of tutelary deities, among which Lam Lais are the most predominant ones. Tibetan Buddhism has Yidam as a tutelary deity. Dakini is the patron of those who seek knowledge.” ref
“A tutelary (also tutelar) The Greeks also thought deities guarded specific places: for instance, Athena was the patron goddess of the city of Athens. Socrates spoke of hearing the voice of his personal spirit or daimonion:
You have often heard me speak of an oracle or sign which comes to me … . This sign I have had ever since I was a child. The sign is a voice which comes to me and always forbids me to do something which I am going to do, but never commands me to do anything, and this is what stands in the way of my being a politician.” ref
“Tutelary deities who guard and preserve a place or a person are fundamental to ancient Roman religion. The tutelary deity of a man was his Genius, that of a woman her Juno. In the Imperial era, the Genius of the Emperor was a focus of Imperial cult. An emperor might also adopt a major deity as his personal patron or tutelary, as Augustus did Apollo. Precedents for claiming the personal protection of a deity were established in the Republican era, when for instance the Roman dictator Sulla advertised the goddess Victory as his tutelary by holding public games (ludi) in her honor.” ref
“Each town or city had one or more tutelary deities, whose protection was considered particularly vital in time of war and siege. Rome itself was protected by a goddess whose name was to be kept ritually secret on pain of death (for a supposed case, see Quintus Valerius Soranus). The Capitoline Triad of Juno, Jupiter, and Minerva were also tutelaries of Rome. The Italic towns had their own tutelary deities. Juno often had this function, as at the Latin town of Lanuvium and the Etruscan city of Veii, and was often housed in an especially grand temple on the arx (citadel) or other prominent or central location. The tutelary deity of Praeneste was Fortuna, whose oracle was renowned.” ref
“The Roman ritual of evocatio was premised on the belief that a town could be made vulnerable to military defeat if the power of its tutelary deity were diverted outside the city, perhaps by the offer of superior cult at Rome. The depiction of some goddesses such as the Magna Mater (Great Mother, or Cybele) as “tower-crowned” represents their capacity to preserve the city. A town in the provinces might adopt a deity from within the Roman religious sphere to serve as its guardian, or syncretize its own tutelary with such; for instance, a community within the civitas of the Remi in Gaul adopted Apollo as its tutelary, and at the capital of the Remi (present-day Rheims), the tutelary was Mars Camulus.” ref
Household deity (a kind of or related to a Tutelary deity)
“A household deity is a deity or spirit that protects the home, looking after the entire household or certain key members. It has been a common belief in paganism as well as in folklore across many parts of the world. Household deities fit into two types; firstly, a specific deity – typically a goddess – often referred to as a hearth goddess or domestic goddess who is associated with the home and hearth, such as the ancient Greek Hestia.” ref
“The second type of household deities are those that are not one singular deity, but a type, or species of animistic deity, who usually have lesser powers than major deities. This type was common in the religions of antiquity, such as the Lares of ancient Roman religion, the Gashin of Korean shamanism, and Cofgodas of Anglo-Saxon paganism. These survived Christianisation as fairy-like creatures existing in folklore, such as the Anglo-Scottish Brownie and Slavic Domovoy.” ref
“Household deities were usually worshipped not in temples but in the home, where they would be represented by small idols (such as the teraphim of the Bible, often translated as “household gods” in Genesis 31:19 for example), amulets, paintings, or reliefs. They could also be found on domestic objects, such as cosmetic articles in the case of Tawaret. The more prosperous houses might have a small shrine to the household god(s); the lararium served this purpose in the case of the Romans. The gods would be treated as members of the family and invited to join in meals, or be given offerings of food and drink.” ref
“In many religions, both ancient and modern, a god would preside over the home. Certain species, or types, of household deities, existed. An example of this was the Roman Lares. Many European cultures retained house spirits into the modern period. Some examples of these include:
- Brownie (Scotland and England) or Hob (England) / Kobold (Germany) / Goblin / Hobgoblin
- Domovoy (Slavic)
- Nisse (Norwegian or Danish) / Tomte (Swedish) / Tonttu (Finnish)
- Húsvættir (Norse)” ref
“Although the cosmic status of household deities was not as lofty as that of the Twelve Olympians or the Aesir, they were also jealous of their dignity and also had to be appeased with shrines and offerings, however humble. Because of their immediacy they had arguably more influence on the day-to-day affairs of men than the remote gods did. Vestiges of their worship persisted long after Christianity and other major religions extirpated nearly every trace of the major pagan pantheons. Elements of the practice can be seen even today, with Christian accretions, where statues to various saints (such as St. Francis) protect gardens and grottos. Even the gargoyles found on older churches, could be viewed as guardians partitioning a sacred space.” ref
“For centuries, Christianity fought a mop-up war against these lingering minor pagan deities, but they proved tenacious. For example, Martin Luther‘s Tischreden have numerous – quite serious – references to dealing with kobolds. Eventually, rationalism and the Industrial Revolution threatened to erase most of these minor deities, until the advent of romantic nationalism rehabilitated them and embellished them into objects of literary curiosity in the 19th century. Since the 20th century this literature has been mined for characters for role-playing games, video games, and other fantasy personae, not infrequently invested with invented traits and hierarchies somewhat different from their mythological and folkloric roots.” ref
“In contradistinction to both Herbert Spencer and Edward Burnett Tylor, who defended theories of animistic origins of ancestor worship, Émile Durkheim saw its origin in totemism. In reality, this distinction is somewhat academic, since totemism may be regarded as a particularized manifestation of animism, and something of a synthesis of the two positions was attempted by Sigmund Freud. In Freud’s Totem and Taboo, both totem and taboo are outward expressions or manifestations of the same psychological tendency, a concept which is complementary to, or which rather reconciles, the apparent conflict. Freud preferred to emphasize the psychoanalytic implications of the reification of metaphysical forces, but with particular emphasis on its familial nature. This emphasis underscores, rather than weakens, the ancestral component.” ref
“William Edward Hearn, a noted classicist, and jurist, traced the origin of domestic deities from the earliest stages as an expression of animism, a belief system thought to have existed also in the neolithic, and the forerunner of Indo-European religion. In his analysis of the Indo-European household, in Chapter II “The House Spirit”, Section 1, he states:
The belief which guided the conduct of our forefathers was … the spirit rule of dead ancestors.” ref
“In Section 2 he proceeds to elaborate:
It is thus certain that the worship of deceased ancestors is a vera causa, and not a mere hypothesis. …
In the other European nations, the Slavs, the Teutons, and the Kelts, the House Spirit appears with no less distinctness. … [T]he existence of that worship does not admit of doubt. … The House Spirits had a multitude of other names which it is needless here to enumerate, but all of which are more or less expressive of their friendly relations with man. … In [England] … [h]e is the Brownie. … In Scotland this same Brownie is well known. He is usually described as attached to particular families, with whom he has been known to reside for centuries, threshing the corn, cleaning the house, and performing similar household tasks. His favorite gratification was milk and honey.” ref
ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref
“These ideas are my speculations from the evidence.”
I am still researching the “god‘s origins” all over the world. So you know, it is very complicated but I am smart and willing to look, DEEP, if necessary, which going very deep does seem to be needed here, when trying to actually understand the evolution of gods and goddesses. I am sure of a few things and less sure of others, but even in stuff I am not fully grasping I still am slowly figuring it out, to explain it to others. But as I research more I am understanding things a little better, though I am still working on understanding it all or something close and thus always figuring out more.
Sky Father/Sky God?
“Egyptian: (Nut) Sky Mother and (Geb) Earth Father” (Egypt is different but similar)
Turkic/Mongolic: (Tengri/Tenger Etseg) Sky Father and (Eje/Gazar Eej) Earth Mother *Transeurasian*
Hawaiian: (Wākea) Sky Father and (Papahānaumoku) Earth Mother *Austronesian*
New Zealand/ Māori: (Ranginui) Sky Father and (Papatūānuku) Earth Mother *Austronesian*
Proto-Indo-European: (Dyḗus/Dyḗus ph₂tḗr) Sky Father and (Dʰéǵʰōm/Pleth₂wih₁) Earth Mother
Indo-Aryan: (Dyaus Pita) Sky Father and (Prithvi Mata) Earth Mother *Indo-European*
Italic: (Jupiter) Sky Father and (Juno) Sky Mother *Indo-European*
Etruscan: (Tinia) Sky Father and (Uni) Sky Mother *Tyrsenian/Italy Pre–Indo-European*
Hellenic/Greek: (Zeus) Sky Father and (Hera) Sky Mother who started as an “Earth Goddess” *Indo-European*
Nordic: (Dagr) Sky Father and (Nótt) Sky Mother *Indo-European*
Slavic: (Perun) Sky Father and (Mokosh) Earth Mother *Indo-European*
Illyrian: (Deipaturos) Sky Father and (Messapic Damatura’s “earth-mother” maybe) Earth Mother *Indo-European*
Albanian: (Zojz) Sky Father and (?) *Indo-European*
Baltic: (Perkūnas) Sky Father and (Saulė) Sky Mother *Indo-European*
Germanic: (Týr) Sky Father and (?) *Indo-European*
Colombian-Muisca: (Bochica) Sky Father and (Huythaca) Sky Mother *Chibchan*
Aztec: (Quetzalcoatl) Sky Father and (Xochiquetzal) Sky Mother *Uto-Aztecan*
Incan: (Viracocha) Sky Father and (Mama Runtucaya) Sky Mother *Quechuan*
China: (Tian/Shangdi) Sky Father and (Dì) Earth Mother *Sino-Tibetan*
Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian: (An/Anu) Sky Father and (Ki) Earth Mother
Finnish: (Ukko) Sky Father and (Akka) Earth Mother *Finno-Ugric*
Sami: (Horagalles) Sky Father and (Ravdna) Earth Mother *Finno-Ugric*
Puebloan-Zuni: (Ápoyan Ta’chu) Sky Father and (Áwitelin Tsíta) Earth Mother
Puebloan-Hopi: (Tawa) Sky Father and (Kokyangwuti/Spider Woman/Grandmother) Earth Mother *Uto-Aztecan*
Puebloan-Navajo: (Tsohanoai) Sky Father and (Estsanatlehi) Earth Mother *Na-Dene*
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Hinduism around 3,700 to 3,500 years old. ref
Judaism around 3,450 or 3,250 years old. (The first writing in the bible was “Paleo-Hebrew” dated to around 3,000 years ago Khirbet Qeiyafa is the site of an ancient fortress city overlooking the Elah Valley. And many believe the religious Jewish texts were completed around 2,500) ref, ref
Judaism is around 3,450 or 3,250 years old. (“Paleo-Hebrew” 3,000 years ago and Torah 2,500 years ago)
“Judaism is an Abrahamic, its roots as an organized religion in the Middle East during the Bronze Age. Some scholars argue that modern Judaism evolved from Yahwism, the religion of ancient Israel and Judah, by the late 6th century BCE, and is thus considered to be one of the oldest monotheistic religions.” ref
“Yahwism is the name given by modern scholars to the religion of ancient Israel, essentially polytheistic, with a plethora of gods and goddesses. Heading the pantheon was Yahweh, the national god of the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah, with his consort, the goddess Asherah; below them were second-tier gods and goddesses such as Baal, Shamash, Yarikh, Mot, and Astarte, all of whom had their own priests and prophets and numbered royalty among their devotees, and a third and fourth tier of minor divine beings, including the mal’ak, the messengers of the higher gods, who in later times became the angels of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Yahweh, however, was not the ‘original’ god of Israel “Isra-El”; it is El, the head of the Canaanite pantheon, whose name forms the basis of the name “Israel”, and none of the Old Testament patriarchs, the tribes of Israel, the Judges, or the earliest monarchs, have a Yahwistic theophoric name (i.e., one incorporating the name of Yahweh).” ref
“El is a Northwest Semitic word meaning “god” or “deity“, or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major ancient Near Eastern deities. A rarer form, ‘ila, represents the predicate form in Old Akkadian and in Amorite. The word is derived from the Proto-Semitic *ʔil-, meaning “god”. Specific deities known as ‘El or ‘Il include the supreme god of the ancient Canaanite religion and the supreme god of East Semitic speakers in Mesopotamia’s Early Dynastic Period. ʼĒl is listed at the head of many pantheons. In some Canaanite and Ugaritic sources, ʼĒl played a role as father of the gods, of creation, or both. For example, in the Ugaritic texts, ʾil mlk is understood to mean “ʼĒl the King” but ʾil hd as “the god Hadad“. The Semitic root ʾlh (Arabic ʾilāh, Aramaic ʾAlāh, ʾElāh, Hebrew ʾelōah) may be ʾl with a parasitic h, and ʾl may be an abbreviated form of ʾlh. In Ugaritic the plural form meaning “gods” is ʾilhm, equivalent to Hebrew ʾelōhîm “powers”. In the Hebrew texts this word is interpreted as being semantically singular for “god” by biblical commentators. However the documentary hypothesis for the Old Testament (corresponds to the Jewish Torah) developed originally in the 1870s, identifies these that different authors – the Jahwist, Elohist, Deuteronomist, and the Priestly source – were responsible for editing stories from a polytheistic religion into those of a monotheistic religion. Inconsistencies that arise between monotheism and polytheism in the texts are reflective of this hypothesis.” ref
Jainism around 2,599 – 2,527 years old. ref
Confucianism around 2,600 – 2,551 years old. ref
Buddhism around 2,563/2,480 – 2,483/2,400 years old. ref
Christianity around 2,o00 years old. ref
Shinto around 1,305 years old. ref
Islam around 1407–1385 years old. ref
Knowledge to Ponder:
Stars/Astrology:
- Possibly, around 30,000 years ago (in simpler form) to 6,000 years ago, Stars/Astrology are connected to Ancestors, Spirit Animals, and Deities.
- The star also seems to be a possible proto-star for Star of Ishtar, Star of Inanna, or Star of Venus.
- Around 7,000 to 6,000 years ago, Star Constellations/Astrology have connections to the “Kurgan phenomenon” of below-ground “mound” stone/wood burial structures and “Dolmen phenomenon” of above-ground stone burial structures.
- Around 6,500–5,800 years ago, The Northern Levant migrations into Jordon and Israel in the Southern Levant brought new cultural and religious transfer from Turkey and Iran.
- “The Ghassulian Star,” a mysterious 6,000-year-old mural from Jordan may have connections to the European paganstic kurgan/dolmens phenomenon.
“Astrology is a range of divinatory practices, recognized as pseudoscientific since the 18th century, that claim to discern information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the apparent positions of celestial objects. Different cultures have employed forms of astrology since at least the 2nd millennium BCE, these practices having originated in calendrical systems used to predict seasonal shifts and to interpret celestial cycles as signs of divine communications. Most, if not all, cultures have attached importance to what they observed in the sky, and some—such as the Hindus, Chinese, and the Maya—developed elaborate systems for predicting terrestrial events from celestial observations. Western astrology, one of the oldest astrological systems still in use, can trace its roots to 19th–17th century BCE Mesopotamia, from where it spread to Ancient Greece, Rome, the Islamicate world and eventually Central and Western Europe. Contemporary Western astrology is often associated with systems of horoscopes that purport to explain aspects of a person’s personality and predict significant events in their lives based on the positions of celestial objects; the majority of professional astrologers rely on such systems.” ref
Around 5,500 years ago, Science evolves, The first evidence of science was 5,500 years ago and was demonstrated by a body of empirical, theoretical, and practical knowledge about the natural world. ref
Around 5,000 years ago, Origin of Logics is a Naturalistic Observation (principles of valid reasoning, inference, & demonstration) ref
Around 4,150 to 4,000 years ago: The earliest surviving versions of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, which was originally titled “He who Saw the Deep” (Sha naqba īmuru) or “Surpassing All Other Kings” (Shūtur eli sharrī) were written. ref
Hinduism:
- 3,700 years ago or so, the oldest of the Hindu Vedas (scriptures), the Rig Veda was composed.
- 3,500 years ago or so, the Vedic Age began in India after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization.
Judaism:
- around 3,000 years ago, the first writing in the bible was “Paleo-Hebrew”
- around 2,500 years ago, many believe the religious Jewish texts were completed
Myths: The bible inspired religion is not just one religion or one myth but a grouping of several religions and myths
- Around 3,450 or 3,250 years ago, according to legend, is the traditionally accepted period in which the Israelite lawgiver, Moses, provided the Ten Commandments.
- Around 2,500 to 2,400 years ago, a collection of ancient religious writings by the Israelites based primarily upon the Hebrew Bible, Tanakh, or Old Testament is the first part of Christianity’s bible.
- Around 2,400 years ago, the most accepted hypothesis is that the canon was formed in stages, first the Pentateuch (Torah).
- Around 2,140 to 2,116 years ago, the Prophets was written during the Hasmonean dynasty, and finally the remaining books.
- Christians traditionally divide the Old Testament into four sections:
- The first five books or Pentateuch (Torah).
- The proposed history books telling the history of the Israelites from their conquest of Canaan to their defeat and exile in Babylon.
- The poetic and proposed “Wisdom books” dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world.
- The books of the biblical prophets, warning of the consequences of turning away from God:
- Henotheism:
- Exodus 20:23 “You shall not make other gods besides Me (not saying there are no other gods just not to worship them); gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves.”
- Polytheism:
- Judges 10:6 “Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.”
- 1 Corinthians 8:5 “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords.”
- Monotheism:
- Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Around 2,570 to 2,270 Years Ago, there is a confirmation of atheistic doubting as well as atheistic thinking, mainly by Greek philosophers. However, doubting gods is likely as old as the invention of gods and should destroy the thinking that belief in god(s) is the “default belief”. The Greek word is apistos (a “not” and pistos “faithful,”), thus not faithful or faithless because one is unpersuaded and unconvinced by a god(s) claim. Short Definition: unbelieving, unbeliever, or unbelief.
Expressions of Atheistic Thinking:
- Around 2,600 years ago, Ajita Kesakambali, ancient Indian philosopher, who is the first known proponent of Indian materialism. ref
- Around 2,535 to 2,475 years ago, Heraclitus, Greek pre-Socratic philosopher, a native of the Greek city Ephesus, Ionia, on the coast of Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor or modern Turkey. ref
- Around 2,500 to 2,400 years ago, according to The Story of Civilization book series certain African pygmy tribes have no identifiable gods, spirits, or religious beliefs or rituals, and even what burials accrue are without ceremony. ref
- Around 2,490 to 2,430 years ago, Empedocles, Greek pre-Socratic philosopher and a citizen of Agrigentum, a Greek city in Sicily. ref
- Around 2,460 to 2,370 years ago, Democritus, Greek pre-Socratic philosopher considered to be the “father of modern science” possibly had some disbelief amounting to atheism. ref
- Around 2,399 years ago or so, Socrates, a famous Greek philosopher was tried for sinfulness by teaching doubt of state gods. ref
- Around 2,341 to 2,270 years ago, Epicurus, a Greek philosopher known for composing atheistic critics and famously stated, “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?” ref
This last expression by Epicurus, seems to be an expression of Axiological Atheism. To understand and utilize value or actually possess “Value Conscious/Consciousness” to both give a strong moral “axiological” argument (the problem of evil) as well as use it to fortify humanism and positive ethical persuasion of human helping and care responsibilities. Because value-blindness gives rise to sociopathic/psychopathic evil.
While hallucinogens are associated with shamanism, it is alcohol that is associated with paganism.
The Atheist-Humanist-Leftist Revolutionaries Shows in the prehistory series:
Show two: Pre-animism 300,000 years old and animism 100,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”
Show tree: Totemism 50,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”
Show four: Shamanism 30,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”
Show five: Paganism 12,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”
Show six: Emergence of hierarchy, sexism, slavery, and the new male god dominance: Paganism 7,000-5,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Capitalism) (World War 0) Elite and their slaves!
Prehistory: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” the division of labor, power, rights, and recourses: VIDEO
Pre-animism 300,000 years old and animism 100,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”: VIDEO
Totemism 50,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”: VIDEO
Shamanism 30,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism”: VIDEO
Paganism 12,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Pre-Capitalism): VIDEO
Paganism 7,000-5,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Capitalism) (World War 0) Elite and their slaves: VIEDO
Paganism 5,000 years old: progressed organized religion and the state: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (Kings and the Rise of the State): VIEDO
Paganism 4,000 years old: related to “Anarchism and Socialism” (First Moralistic gods, then the Origin time of Monotheism): VIEDO
I do not hate simply because I challenge and expose myths or lies any more than others being thought of as loving simply because of the protection and hiding from challenge their favored myths or lies.
The truth is best championed in the sunlight of challenge.
An archaeologist once said to me “Damien religion and culture are very different”
My response, So are you saying that was always that way, such as would you say Native Americans’ cultures are separate from their religions? And do you think it always was the way you believe?
I had said that religion was a cultural product. That is still how I see it and there are other archaeologists that think close to me as well. Gods too are the myths of cultures that did not understand science or the world around them, seeing magic/supernatural everywhere.
I personally think there is a goddess and not enough evidence to support a male god at Çatalhöyük but if there was both a male and female god and goddess then I know the kind of gods they were like Proto-Indo-European mythology.
This series idea was addressed in, Anarchist Teaching as Free Public Education or Free Education in the Public: VIDEO
Our 12 video series: Organized Oppression: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of power (9,000-4,000 years ago), is adapted from: The Complete and Concise History of the Sumerians and Early Bronze Age Mesopotamia (7000-2000 BC): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFjxmY7jQA by “History with Cy“
Show #1: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Samarra, Halaf, Ubaid)
Show #2: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power
Show #3: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Uruk and the First Cities)
Show #4: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (First Kings)
Show #5: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Early Dynastic Period)
Show #6: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power
Show #7: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Sargon and Akkadian Rule)
Show #9: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Gudea of Lagash and Utu-hegal)
Show #12: Mesopotamian State Force and the Politics of Power (Aftermath and Legacy of Sumer)
The “Atheist-Humanist-Leftist Revolutionaries”
Cory Johnston ☭ Ⓐ Atheist Leftist @Skepticallefty & I (Damien Marie AtHope) @AthopeMarie (my YouTube & related blog) are working jointly in atheist, antitheist, antireligionist, antifascist, anarchist, socialist, and humanist endeavors in our videos together, generally, every other Saturday.
Why Does Power Bring Responsibility?
Think, how often is it the powerless that start wars, oppress others, or commit genocide? So, I guess the question is to us all, to ask, how can power not carry responsibility in a humanity concept? I know I see the deep ethical responsibility that if there is power their must be a humanistic responsibility of ethical and empathic stewardship of that power. Will I be brave enough to be kind? Will I possess enough courage to be compassionate? Will my valor reach its height of empathy? I as everyone, earns our justified respect by our actions, that are good, ethical, just, protecting, and kind. Do I have enough self-respect to put my love for humanity’s flushing, over being brought down by some of its bad actors? May we all be the ones doing good actions in the world, to help human flourishing.
I create the world I want to live in, striving for flourishing. Which is not a place but a positive potential involvement and promotion; a life of humanist goal precision. To master oneself, also means mastering positive prosocial behaviors needed for human flourishing. I may have lost a god myth as an atheist, but I am happy to tell you, my friend, it is exactly because of that, leaving the mental terrorizer, god belief, that I truly regained my connected ethical as well as kind humanity.
Cory and I will talk about prehistory and theism, addressing the relevance to atheism, anarchism, and socialism.
At the same time as the rise of the male god, 7,000 years ago, there was also the very time there was the rise of violence, war, and clans to kingdoms, then empires, then states. It is all connected back to 7,000 years ago, and it moved across the world.
Cory Johnston: https://damienmarieathope.com/2021/04/cory-johnston-mind-of-a-skeptical-leftist/?v=32aec8db952d
The Mind of a Skeptical Leftist (YouTube)
Cory Johnston: Mind of a Skeptical Leftist @Skepticallefty
The Mind of a Skeptical Leftist By Cory Johnston: “Promoting critical thinking, social justice, and left-wing politics by covering current events and talking to a variety of people. Cory Johnston has been thoughtfully talking to people and attempting to promote critical thinking, social justice, and left-wing politics.” http://anchor.fm/skepticalleft
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Cory Johnston ☭ Ⓐ @Skepticallefty Evidence-based atheist leftist (he/him) Producer, host, and co-host of 4 podcasts @skeptarchy @skpoliticspod and @AthopeMarie
Damien Marie AtHope (“At Hope”) Axiological Atheist, Anti-theist, Anti-religionist, Secular Humanist. Rationalist, Writer, Artist, Poet, Philosopher, Advocate, Activist, Psychology, and Armchair Archaeology/Anthropology/Historian.
Damien is interested in: Freedom, Liberty, Justice, Equality, Ethics, Humanism, Science, Atheism, Antiteism, Antireligionism, Ignosticism, Left-Libertarianism, Anarchism, Socialism, Mutualism, Axiology, Metaphysics, LGBTQI, Philosophy, Advocacy, Activism, Mental Health, Psychology, Archaeology, Social Work, Sexual Rights, Marriage Rights, Woman’s Rights, Gender Rights, Child Rights, Secular Rights, Race Equality, Ageism/Disability Equality, Etc. And a far-leftist, “Anarcho-Humanist.”
I am not a good fit in the atheist movement that is mostly pro-capitalist, I am anti-capitalist. Mostly pro-skeptic, I am a rationalist not valuing skepticism. Mostly pro-agnostic, I am anti-agnostic. Mostly limited to anti-Abrahamic religions, I am an anti-religionist.
To me, the “male god” seems to have either emerged or become prominent around 7,000 years ago, whereas the now favored monotheism “male god” is more like 4,000 years ago or so. To me, the “female goddess” seems to have either emerged or become prominent around 11,000-10,000 years ago or so, losing the majority of its once prominence around 2,000 years ago due largely to the now favored monotheism “male god” that grow in prominence after 4,000 years ago or so.
My Thought on the Evolution of Gods?
Animal protector deities from old totems/spirit animal beliefs come first to me, 13,000/12,000 years ago, then women as deities 11,000/10,000 years ago, then male gods around 7,000/8,000 years ago. Moralistic gods around 5,000/4,000 years ago, and monotheistic gods around 4,000/3,000 years ago.
Damien Marie AtHope (Said as “At” “Hope”)/(Autodidact Polymath but not good at math):
Axiological Atheist, Anti-theist, Anti-religionist, Secular Humanist, Rationalist, Writer, Artist, Jeweler, Poet, “autodidact” Philosopher, schooled in Psychology, and “autodidact” Armchair Archaeology/Anthropology/Pre-Historian (Knowledgeable in the range of: 1 million to 5,000/4,000 years ago). I am an anarchist socialist politically. Reasons for or Types of Atheism
My Website, My Blog, & Short-writing or Quotes, My YouTube, Twitter: @AthopeMarie, and My Email: damien.marie.athope@gmail.com