Addressing thinking on Flood Myths and Earth Diver Motifs, Ages of mythology, Myth Migrations, ETC

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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My art on top relates to The Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic from ancient Mesopotamia: “At the very end of the story, the characters spend their evenings in a boat on the river. In this cylinder seal impression of a boat, with an animal’s head is the stern.” ref

“The Gilgamesh flood myth is a partial narrative of the Gilgamesh Epic. It is one of three Mesopotamian flood myths alongside the one included in the Eridu Genesis, and an episode from the Atra-Hasis Epic. Many scholars believe that the Gilgamesh flood myth was added to Tablet XI in the “standard version” of the Gilgamesh Epic by an editor who used the flood story, which is described in the Epic of Atra-Hasis. A short reference to the flood myth is also present in the much older Sumerian Gilgamesh poems, from which the later Babylonian versions drew much of their inspiration and subject matter. Gilgamesh‘s supposed historical reign is believed to have been approximately 2700 BCE, shortly before the earliest known written stories. The discovery of artifacts associated with Aga and Enmebaragesi of Kish, two other kings named in the stories, has lent credibility to the historical existence of Gilgamesh.” ref

“Eridu Genesis, also called the Sumerian Creation Myth or Sumerian Flood Myth, is a work of Sumerian religion offering a description of the story surrounding how humanity was created by the gods, the circumstances leading to the origins of the first cities in Mesopotamia, how the office of kingship appeared, and the global flood myth. The story is known from three fragments representing different versions of the narrative. One is a tablet excavated from the ancient Sumerian city known as Nippur is written in the Sumerian language and is dated to around 1600 BCE or 3,600 years ago. Some modern scholars, including Kim San-hae, believe the Sumerian deluge story corresponds to localized river flooding at Shuruppak (now Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other cities as far north as Kish, as revealed by a layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon-dated to c. 2900 BCE, which interrupts the continuity of settlement. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (c. 3000–2900 BCE) was discovered immediately below this Shuruppak flood stratum. None of the antediluvian rulers have been verified as historical by archaeological excavations and inscriptions, but the Sumerians purported them to have lived in the mythical era before the great deluge.” ref

“Atra-Hasis is an 18th-century BCE or 3,800 years ago Akkadian epic, recorded in various versions on clay tablets and named for one of its protagonists, the priest Atra-Hasis (‘exceedingly wise’). The narrative has four focal points, one of which is a great deluge linked to the upper gods’ intention to destroy their imperfect artificial creatures, as handed down in a remarkably similar manner in various other flood myths of mankind. The name “Atra-Hasis” first appears on the Sumerian King List as a ruler of Shuruppak in the times before that flood. The oldest known copy of the epic tradition concerning Atrahasis can be dated by colophon to the reign of Hammurabi’s great-grandson, Ammi-Saduqa (1646–1626 BCE or 3,646 to 3,626 years ago). In the main, the Atra-Hasis epic reports that a conflict between some of the first Sumerian gods occurs and draws on the earlier myth of the separation of air and earth (‘above’ and ‘below’) in the midst of the cosmic freshwater primordial ocean to clarify their hierarchical relationship. Enlil – “Lord Wind” – represents the leading party in the council of gods; the party of Anunnaki around Anu belongs more to the upper heaven, and that of Igigi around Enki more to that below the earth sphere.” ref

“The earliest Sumerian Gilgamesh poems date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur (2100–2000 BCE or 4,100 to 4,000 years ago). One of these poems mentions Gilgamesh’s journey to meet the flood hero, as well as a short version of the flood story. The earliest Akkadian versions of the unified epic are dated to ca. 2000–1500 BCE or 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. Due to the fragmentary nature of these Old Babylonian versions, it is unclear whether they included an expanded account of the flood myth; however, one fragment definitely includes the story of Gilgamesh’s journey to meet Utnapishtim. The “standard” Akkadian version included a long version of the story and was edited by Sin-liqe-unninni, who lived sometime between 1300-1000 BCE or 3,300 to 3,000 years ago.” ref

So, in my compiled picture/art above, to add a quick outline: there are different versions of a similar theme of a flat earth. That the world was flat, circular at times, and square at others, with four side mountains (thought to hold up the sky/firmament), a single central mountain/pyramid (often with an invisible axis mundi pillar/or tree holding up the sky/firmament), some show a tree like some Native Americans (Mississippians) and Norse. Some, like some Native Americans and India have a turtle with the land on its back/pyramid temple (the snake around the world in India is a repersintation of the waters shown in snake form), and all basically are floating in primordial waters; they used to believe the sky was upper waters and the earth floated on lower waters, all space thought to be cosmic ocean water.

Mythology of Four Squared: Pyramid/Mound-“Square” Mountain at the Center of the World and Square Earth

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“The Sumerian Genesis describes the Abzu as a cosmic freshwater ocean that surrounds our mother Earth (created in its midst) above and below, so the sketch shows the same as Babylon’s map, now in side view. A bubble of breathable air clings to earth, with the Abzu’s boundary layer as a roof like on Athrahasis-Noah’s lifeboat. Further details, such as Noah’s island Dilmun and the tunnel (through it, the sun god Shamash traveled dry-footed from west to east during the night), are taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh. An important technical detail are also the sluices built into sky. Through them, the gods, well skilled in the construction of irrigation systems, supplied their Garden of Eden with rain, but also unleashed the Flood.” ref

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“The Babylonian Map of the World (also Imago Mundi or Mappa mundi) is a Babylonian clay tablet with a schematic world map and two inscriptions written in the Akkadian language. Dated to no earlier than the 9th century BCE or 2,900 years ago (with a late 8th or 7th century BCE date being more likely), it includes a brief and partially lost textual description. The tablet describes the oldest known depiction of the then known world. 14 – 17. Ocean (salt water, Akkadian: ^idmar-ra-tum). The text above the map (11 lines) seems to describe part of the creation of the world by Marduk, the patron god of Babylon, who parted the primeval salt Ocean (the goddess Tiamat) and thus created Land and Sea. Of the Sea it says: the ruine[d] gods which he (Marduk) set[tled] inside the Sea […] are present; the viper, the great sea-serpent inside. Next, on Land, a series of two mythical creatures (“the Anzu-bird, and scorpi[on-man]“) and at least fifteen land animals are mentioned, “beasts which Marduk created on top of the res[tl]ess Sea” (i.e. on the land, visualized as a kind of giant raft floating in the Sea), among them mountain goat, gazelle, lion, wolf, monkey and female-monkey, ostrich, cat, and chameleon. With the exception of the cat, all these animals were typical of faraway lands. The last two lines of the text refer to three legendary heroes: [U]tnapištim (the hero of the Flood as described in Gilgamesh’s epic), Sargon (ruler of Akkad), and Nur-[D]agan the King of Buršaḫa[nda] (opponent of Sargon).” ref

Shades of the Rainbow Serpent? A KhoeSan Animal between Myth and Landscape in Southern Africa—Ethnographic Contextualizations of Rock Art Representations

“The snake is a potent entity in many cultures across the world, and is a noticeable global theme in rock art and inscribed landscapes. We mobilize our long-term ethnographic research with southern African KhoeSan peoples to situate and interpret the presence of snake motifs in the region’s rock art. We contextualize the snake as a transformative ontological mediator between everyday and “entranced” KhoeSan worlds (those associated with “altered states of consciousness”), to weave together both mythological and shamanistic interpretations of southern African rock art. Ethnographic explorations of experiences of snakes as both an aspect of natural history and the physical environment, and as embodiments of multiplicitous and mythical meaning by which to live and understand life, shed light on the presence of snakes and associated snake-themes in southern African rock art. By drawing on ethnographic material and in conjunction with a review of the literature, we highlight a dynamic assemblage of extant associations between snakes, rain, water, fertility, blood, fat, transformation, dance, and healing. We suggest that these extant associations have explanatory potential for understanding the meaning of these themes in the rock art created by the ancestors of contemporary KhoeSan peoples. Our paper contributes to a live debate regarding the interpretive relevance of ethnography for understanding rock art representations from the past.” ref

“Australian aboriginal mythology is replete with references to snakes, including the “huge hideous snake, called Jeedara, or Ganba” who Mirning aboriginals believed “lived in the caves and blowholes of on the Nullarbor Plain”—the “hissing noises from the blowholes … the sound of the monstrous snake’s breathing”—and who “ate anyone who came into his territory”, and in the ancestral Dreamtime was able to push up “the steep sea-cliffs so as to swim along beneath them”. Ramona and Desmond Morris write further that “by far the most spectacular snakes in Australian aboriginal art are the mythical rainbow serpents. These usually live in waterholes during the dry season, but take to the thunder clouds when the rains come, sometimes appearing in the sky of rainbows.” In southern Africa, Brian Morris identifies a role of the python amongst Malawian Chewa that has striking resemblance to the python amongst KhoeSan and indeed the anaconda in South American contexts, both constrictor snakes of enormous potential size—linked mythologically and empirically to waters, rivers, deep pools, and rainfall and accordingly a “key symbolic mediation between the supreme beings and humans”. And at “Python Rock” at Tsodilo Hills in Botswana, a site known for its concentration of rock art, a naturally occurring rock-form has been worked over millennia to enhance its snake-like appearance, through the addition of several hundred human-made indentations (cupules) into the rock surface whose dappled effects in sunlight are suggestive of snake-scales and movement.” ref

“The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity often seen as the creator god, known by numerous names in different Australian Aboriginal languages by the many different Aboriginal peoples. It is a common motif in the art and religion of many Aboriginal Australian peoples. Much like the archetypal mother goddess, the Rainbow Serpent creates land and diversity for the Aboriginal people, but when disturbed can bring great chaos. Though the concept of the Rainbow Serpent has existed for a very long time in Aboriginal Australian cultures. It has also been suggested that the Serpent’s position as the most prominent creator God in the Australian tradition has largely been the creation of non-Aboriginal anthropologists. In addition to stories about the Rainbow Serpent being passed down from generation to generation, the Rainbow Serpent has been worshipped through rituals and has also inspired cultural artifacts such as artwork and songs, a tradition that continues today. Many Aboriginal Australian artists continue to be inspired by the Rainbow Serpent and use it as a subject in their art.” ref

“Dreamtime (or The Dreaming or Tjukurrpa or Jukurrpa) stories tell of the great spirits and totems during creation, in animal and human form, that molded the barren and featureless earth. The Rainbow Serpent came from beneath the ground and created huge ridges, mountains, and gorges as it pushed upward. The most common motif in Rainbow Serpent stories is the Serpent as creator, with the Serpent often bringing life to an empty space. The Rainbow Serpent is understood to be of immense proportions and inhabits deep permanent waterholes and is in control of life’s most precious resource, water. In some cultures, the Rainbow Serpent is considered to be the ultimate creator of everything in the universe. In some cultures, the Rainbow Serpent is male; in others, female; in yet others, the gender is ambiguous, or the Rainbow Serpent is hermaphroditic or bisexual, thus an androgynous entity. Some commentators have suggested that the Rainbow Serpent is a phallic symbol, which fits its connection with fertility myths and rituals. When the Serpent is characterized as female or bisexual, it is sometimes depicted with breasts. Other times, the Serpent has no particular gender. The Serpent has also been known to appear as a scorpion or another animal or creature. In some stories, the Serpent is associated with a bat, sometimes called a “flying fox” in Australian English, engaged in a rivalry over a woman. Some scholars have identified other creatures, such as a bird, crocodile, dingo, or lizard, as taking the role of the Serpent in stories. In all cases, these animals are also associated with water. The Rainbow Serpent has also been identified with the bunyip, a fearful, water-hole-dwelling creature in Australian mythology.” ref

Dr Pete Kuzma: “In spite of there being 500 or so nations, there are similar beliefs across them. Some in different parts of Australia will be significantly different, but in most, they follow the same interpretation of the world, one of the creator spirits, the rainbow spirit, and particularly in the northern parts of Australia, this is the one that brought life to the land from the sky. A common belief in the Dreaming stories is that the Earth is a reflection of the sky. The sky is land as well. One thinking holds that the frequent return of Halley’s comment may have led to/related to the origins of the Rainbow Serpent.” – Indigenous Australian Astronomy (Astronomical Society of Edinburgh)

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“The Rainbow Serpent is known by different names by the many different Aboriginal cultures. Yurlunggur is the name of the “rainbow serpent” according to the Murngin (a Yolngu group) in north-eastern Arnhem Land, The Yurlunggur was considered “the great father”. The serpent is called Witij/Wititj by the Galpu clan of the Dhangu people, of Arnhem Land, in the Northern Territory, one of Yolngu peoples. Kunmanggur by the Murinbata people and Numereji by the Kakadu (Gaagudju), both in the Northern Territory. Bolung in the Northern Territory, by the Dangbon/Dalabon/Buan and Rembarrnga. muitj (var. Moitt, Muit ) in Central Arnhemland by the Rembarrnga, etc. Wollunqua by the Warumungu people of the Northern Territory. Kanmare is the name of the great water serpent in Queensland among the Pitapita people of the Boulia District; it is apparently a giant carpet snake, and recorded under the name Cunmurra further south. The same snake is called Tulloun among the Mitakoodi (Maithakari). Two mythical Kooremah of the Mycoolon (Maikulan) tribe of Queensland, are cosmic carpet snakes 40 miles long, residing in watery realm of the dead, or on the pathway leading to it; this is probably equivalent to the rainbow snake also. Andrénjinyi by the natives of Pennefather River, North Queensland. Dhakkan (or Takkan) by the Gubbi Gubbi (Kabi), a people native to South Eastern Queensland. Goorialla by the Lardil people of Mornington Island in the Wellesley Islands chain in the Gulf of Carpentaria, Queensland. Taipan by the Wikmunkan peoples, who traditionally ranged over an extensive area of the western Cape York Peninsula in northern Queensland. Kajura by the Ingarda people of the Gascoyne region of Western Australia. Wagyl by the Noongar people who live in the south-west corner of Western Australia. Wanamangura by the Thalanyji (Talainji) people in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. Wanampi by the Aṉangu people from an area equivalent to the Western Desert cultural bloc, in central Australia.” ref

“And the Rainbow Serpent is known by Myndie (Melbourne, Victoria), Bunyip (Western Victoria), as well as Arkaroo (Flinders Ranges, South Australia).” ref

“This ‘Rainbow Serpent’ is generally and variously identified by those who tell ‘Rainbow Serpent’ myths, as a snake of some enormous size often living within the deepest waterholes of many of Australia’s waterways; descended from that larger being visible as a dark streak in the Milky Way, it reveals itself to people in this world as a rainbow as it moves through water and rain, shaping landscapes, naming and singing of places, swallowing and sometimes drowning people; strengthening the knowledgeable with rainmaking and healing powers; blighting others with sores, weakness, illness, and death.” ref

“Unambal Aborigine Tribe of North West Australia: The Indigenous Australian People see the Earth as the great serpent Ungut. The Milky Way is seen as another serpent called Wallanganda. Between them, these two Serpents gave birth to ‘Creation’ by dreaming all the creatures that live on the Earth, including the spirit ancestors of the Aboriginal people, and also the Wandjina who bring both rain and fertility. The Australian Aboriginal Peoples lived in two times only: the primeval times, in which all life came into being, and the present. There is no future. Their language has numerals for ‘one’, ‘two’, and ‘three’, but the word for ‘four’ is the same as ‘very many’. The Wandjina are divided into two groups; the originators of all human customs and the inventors of all implements. The Wandjina can change from one form to another at will; from a Wandjina, to a w a human, to an animal. The Wandjina live today at the bottom of the ‘watering place’ associated with each particular painting. According to the Aboriginal People, when the Wandjina lay down, they entered the earth, leaving their imprints on the stone, so they were believed to be the originators of the rock paintings.” ref

 Aboriginal Cosmology

“Despite my cautionary notes about different cosmologies, it is occasionally possible to identify universal themes. Most Australian Aboriginal people held a common view of the earth as a flat disc surrounded by the boundless waters of an ocean (Similar to Sumerian mythology, like cosmic primordial waters that preexisted before creation, like other World myths, even though Australia is not shown in the map as listed in the waters before creation myths on Mythology and Folklore Database, but one entry for B3A Primary waters under, Yirkalla: At first there was water everywhere, the waves knocked down islands of foam; two sisters came in a boat, called the foam land, it became dry land; with their digging tools they dug wells, from which all the animals and birds came out; the sisters gave them names and showed them where to live; people appeared from somewhere; while the women were sleeping). Above this earth-disc was a solid vault or canopy. Beyond this vault was the sky-world, a vast, plentiful, and beautiful place. ‘The sky was a canopy covering all and coming down beyond the horizon to meet and enclose the flat surface on which men and women followed the fixed pattern of their lives’. The sky dome or canopy was usually supported by props of one sort or another. Views about what constituted the props differed across the country. In the Australian Alps, for example, the vault was held up by trees, but on the New South Wales coast, the props appear also to have been solid wooden pillars watched over and guarded by an old man. Myths told to Daisy Bates by people from the Great Australian Bight indicate that the sky-dome was held up by a great tree, known as Warda, which had to be protected at all times, an idea similarly held by groups in the east. The sky-world beyond the dome was envisaged as containing a hole, a window, or a fissure, through which the traditional healers could gain entry. They usually gained access by climbing or pulling themselves up a connecting cord. The cord was seen variously as being hair, a string, a rainbow, lightning, a spear, a grass rope, a tree, flames, a totem board, and a turtle. Among some Victorian groups, there was a view that people used to be able to climb up an immense pine tree (probably Callitris sp.), up through its branches to the topmost ones, which reached the sky. They could walk about, indeed live on the starry vault. Those people who belonged to the sky could descend to the earth and likewise visit friends before returning. Visits were made for purposes of barter between hunting grounds. The tree was viewed as ‘a regular highway between earth and the upper regions’. Around the Roper River area, amongst the Alawa people in the Northern Territory, the link was also a tree, but more specifically, a large stringy-bark. In an account of the Booandik people of South Australia, the healer (pangal) climbed to the sky-world quite regularly to visit and have social discourse with the sky people. It was also possible in some areas to gain access to the skyworld by tunneling through the earth to the other side of the sea. In other places, as well as in the Great Australian Bight, there was a notion of an underworld that could be accessed by digging through the limited thickness of the earth. The Sun Woman at night, and Moon Man by day, also traveled along in the underworld valley.” ref

“Beyond the sky-dome or canopy is the sky-world. It is a dynamic and lively place, if somewhat mysterious. The sky-world of the Yarralin people of the Northern Territory, for example, is conceived as being above the stars but below the sun and the moon. It is the home of the Lightning People. When lightning is seen in the sky, it is known that the Lightning People are active, probably fighting. This sky-world is also the world of the dead, but after some time, the spirit of a deceased person merges to become part of the collective Lightning People. The Tiwi of Melville and Bathurst Islands divided their universe into four levels, the underworld, the earth on which they live, the upper world, and beyond that, the sky-world. The upper world had two seasons annually, a wet and a dry. In the dry season, the upper world was the home for the man of thunderstorms, the woman of the monsoonal rains, and the woman of lightning. At the end of the dry season, these three moved to the sky-world and, in doing so, shed rain on the dry earth. While this was happening, the trees and plants of the upper world used the raindrops to send their spirits to the ground, where they grew into plants. Hence, all vegetation on the islands emanated from spirits dropped from the upper world. The sky-world was the place of the stars, the moon, and the sun. The sky-world was frequently envisaged as containing much quartz crystal and fresh water, both being highly valued resources. There is also an intriguing suggestion that it was represented among New South Wales groups by the Bora Ring of secret initiation grounds. The Dieri of Lake Eyre also described their sky-country as being a beautiful and abundant place, full of trees and birds. It has also been described by some as a ‘land of exquisite beauty with flowers blooming everywhere, massed together in brilliant colors like hundreds of rainbows laid out on the grass’. The flowers neither faded nor died. The perception of the sky-world, as an eternal place or space of plenty, beauty, and peacefulness, was not uncommon.” ref

“Over much of Australia and in particular, parts of the west and northwest, the spirits of the dead went to and resided in the sky-world with the ancestral heroes, but as frequently, there was a specially designated earthly place of sojourn for the dead, always located well away from that of the living. Sometimes, it was located at the eastern or western edge of the sky, or on faraway islands. In central and northeast Arnhem Land, mortuary or morning star ceremonies (known as ‘sorry business’) are performed to ensure the safe passage and transition of the deceased souls to the Land of the Dead. As to the nature of stars themselves, opinions differed. Some Aboriginal groups envisaged them as the tracks, campfires, or representations of the sky people. Others saw them as spirits of the dead, and yet others, the Karadjeri36 for example, thought that, as well as being representations of the spirits of dead men and women, they were globules of light – individual nautilus shells with fish still alive inside them. Ancestral creative spirits having a bird form, which have subsequently become stars, is not an uncommon notion. The landscape for Aboriginal people was seen as having been created by ancestral spirits and, in many cases, it is still imbued with their presence. Most of the myths that involve the stars have their dramatic starting points or episodes on the earth, so that all over the continent, the terrestrial environment is intrinsically linked with the celestial environment. Many sky-based ancestral heroes and heroines are also associated with particular places on earth. So, for example, a painted door in the primary school at Yuendumu in Central Australia documents the notion that sacred places on earth fell out of the Milky Way as shooting stars.” ref

“The Wandjina, also written Wanjina and Wondjina and also known as Gulingi, are cloud and rain spirits from the Wanjina Wunggurr cultural bloc of Aboriginal Australians, depicted prominently in rock art in northwestern Australia. Some of the artwork in the Kimberley region of Western Australia dates back to approximately 4,000 years ago. Another closely related spirit entity is the creator being Wunngurr, a being analogous to the Rainbow Serpent in other Aboriginal peoples’ belief systems, but with a different interpretation.” ref

“One story tells of Wandjina, a group of rain and cloud spirits who transported the Ancestors from within the Earth, bringing them through the seas and over the land where life first began. One story tells of the Rainbow Serpent, which is said to have come to Earth from the sky and created water and all life associated with water.” ref

(So, the Rainbow Serpent, a “primordial-waters being,” who preexisted before creation, like other World myths.)

“The Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains of South Australia called the (center and other sectors of) the Milky Way wodliparri in the Kaurna language, meaning “house river”. They believed that Karrawirra Parri (the River Torrens) was a reflection of wodliparri. The Yolŋu people believe that when they die, they are taken by a mystical canoe, Larrpan, to the spirit-island Baralku in the sky, where their camp-fires can be seen burning along the edge of the great river of the Milky Way. The canoe is sent back to Earth as a shooting star, letting their family on Earth know that they have arrived safely in the spirit-land. Aboriginals also thought that god was the canoe. The Yolŋu people of northern Australia say that the constellation of Orion, which they call Julpan (or Djulpan), is a canoe. They tell the story of three brothers who went fishing, and one of them ate a sawfish that was forbidden under their law. Seeing this, the Sun-woman, Walu, made a waterspout that carried him and his two brothers and their canoe up into the sky. The three stars that line in the constellation’s center, which form Orion’s Belt in Western mythology, are the three brothers; the Orion Nebula above them is the forbidden fish; and the bright stars Betelgeuse and Rigel are the bow and stern of the canoe. This is an example of astronomical legends underpinning the ethical and social codes that people use on Earth.” ref

B3a Primary waters, A810: Water is the original element, the dry earth appears later

Location / Tradition: Tübatulabal, Karachays/Balkar, Hidatsa, Five Nations Iroquois (Seneca, Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga), Gros Ventre, Kaska, Hurons

Book XII The Odyssey: Greece

From John’s Mythology Database

“B3, B3a, B3b, B3c, B3d, B3e” Berezkin category: The Origins of the Characteristics of the environment

This motif has been recorded in 398 traditions: Ancient Egypt, Egyptian, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Babylonia, Old and New Testament, Aramaic (Syrians), Arabs of Levant (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan); Bedouins of Sinai, Arabs of Egypt, Berbers of Morocco and adjacent parts of Algeria, Malagasy, Ngbakka, Mbum (incl Mbai), Mundang, Fali, Tupuri, Maya (=Bali), Nyong, Tonga, Songe (Kisonge), Bena-Matembo, Soko, Bushoong: (Ba)kuba, Dengese, Ngongo; Yansi, Maka (Makaa), Baya, Kaka, Fang (Pangwe), Eton, Bafia, Batanga, Benga, Bube (Bubi), Buheba, Yaunde (Ewondo), Yebekolo, Koko, Bulu, Beti (Beti-Bulu), Sekiani, Eghap, Aka, Baka (Badjue) and other Western (Bantu speaking) Pygmies, Igbo (Ibo); Isoko, Urhobo, Yoruba; incl Ife), Nupe, Bini (Edo), Engenni, Chamba, Dakka, Kukuruku, Bozo, Sorko, Dan (=Gio), Guro (=Kweni, incl Gagu, Neio), Toura, Mano, Ngere, Beng, Guro , Kposso, “Togo-Restvölker” (Adele, Akebu, Akposso, Bowiri/Bowili, Santrokofi, Lelemi, Borada Akrade, Teteman, Baakwa, Bowiri), Northern Gur (Oti-Volta): Mamprussi, Dagomba, Dagari (Dagara; incl Lodaga), Bassari, Mosi, Nankanse, Konkomba, Moba; Ditammari, Nyende, Bulsa (pl Builsa, Bulo), Akan, Ashanti, Akwapim; Ga (Accra), Kra, Twi (Chwi, Chi), Bia: Anyi, Agni, Baule, Nsema, Arnhem Land: Enindhilyagwa (Groote Eilandt), KuTiwi, Yulengor, Mara, Oenpelli, Murngin, Roper River, Maung, Murinbata, Murngin (Duwal), Millingimbi, Goulburn Island, Ngulugwongga, Yirrkalla, Voctoria River Downs, Alawa, Anu, Kunwinjku, Trans-New Guinea and unclassified Papuan groups of Irian Jaya: Mejprat, Arandai-Bintuni, Inanwatan-Berau, Papua of Gelvink (Cenderawasih) Bay, Kamoró, Marind Anim, Sawi, Mafore; Korowai; Kwerba; Momina, Eipo, Yale, Awyu, Torricelli family: Valman, Samap, Arapesh (Upper, Coastal), Monumbo, Lilau, Ngaimbom; Moando (Banara); Menya, Olo, Melanesians and Papuans of Bismark Archipelago: New Britain (Paparatava, Lakalai, Kuni, Sulka, Gazelle peninsula), New Ireland, St Matthias Group, Mioko (Melanesians between New Britain and New Ireland), Melanesians and Papuans of Central Solomons: Vella la Vella (Bilua language), Shortland islands (Mono language), San Cristobal, Saint Georgia, Eddystone, Vangunu, Southern Solomons: southern part of Santa Ysabel (Bughotu), Guadalcanal, San Cristobal, Malaita, Ulawa, Melanesians of Admiralty Islands (incl Manus); Seimat (Western Islands), Santa Cruz Islands (incl Nguna, Reef Islands), Central Vanuatu: Espiritu Santo, Araki, Aore, Maewo, Malekula, Vao, Efate (Vate), Nguna, Mae, Ambrim, Pentecost, Oba (=Aoba, East Ambae, Lepers’), Omba, Southern Vanuatu: Tanna, Aneiteum (Polynesian component not included), Eromanga, Kanaka (New Caledonia), Loyalty Islands (Uvea, Lifu, Mare), Fiji, Samoa, Rotuma, Niue, Wallis (=Uvea, different from Melanesian Uvea), Futuna, Tikopia, Bellona, Rennell, partly Aneytium, Futuna (=Erronan, not to be mixed with Futuna in Western Polynesia), Vaeaka-Taumato, incl Matema, Nifeloli, Nukapu, Nupani, Pileni, Maori, Moriori (Chatam Islands), Tuamotu, incl Pukapuka (different from Pukapuka in Cook Islands), Vahitahi, Anaa, Hao, Fangatau, Marquesas, Hawaii, Gilbert Islands, Nauru, Banaba (Ocean island), Kapingamarangi, Nukuoro, Ontong Java, Nukumanu, Takuu, Nukuria, Tuvalu (Ellice), Palau (Western Carolines), Yap, Ulithi, Ngulu, Ifaluk, Woleai, Lamutrek, Faraulip Satawal, Elato, Western Fayu, Truk, Eastern Fayu, Losap, Pulap, Puluwat, Mortlock (incl. Satawan), Ponape, Ngaik, Mwoakil (Mokil), Kusaie (Kosrae), Marshall Islands, incl Ailinglapalap, Arno, Jaluit, Kili, Lae, Maloelap, Majuro, Ratak, Wotho, Ujae, Jaluit (=Jalooj), Namdrik, Timor: Amarasi, Tetum, Meto, Atoni (incl Mollo), Kedang (Lomblen island), Leti Islands (Leti, Moa, Lakor), Alor, Solor, Wetar, Atauru, Fataluku, Flores, incl Mangarai (Western Flores), Nage, Keo, Riung, Ngada or Nad’a (Central Flores), Sika (Eastern Flores), Toraja (Toradja), To Mori, Baree (=Eastern Toraja), Minahasa (incl. Tondano, Tentemboan), Bantik, Bugi, Macassar, Batak (Toba, Dairi), Malay; Temuan (incl Mantra or Mentra), Jakun (Moken), Simeulue, Nias, Kayan, Bahau, Kenja, Aoheng, Punan (Bukat, Basap, Oloh Ot, etc); “Klemantan”, Dusun, Murut, Kelabit, Tombonuwo, Bajau, Tidong, Bidayuh (incl. Maloh), Iban (Sea Dayak), Sakarram; Brunei, Negrito (incl. Mamanwa), Central islands and Bikol: Vizaya, Mansaká, Bikol, Mangyan, Panayan, Sulod, Cebuano (Cebu), Capiz, Romblomanon, Manuyu, Mindanao and Sulu: Blaan (Bilaan), Bagobo, Bukidnon, Cotabato, Hiligáynon, Binukid, Magindaan (=Magindanao: main Muslim population), Mandaya, Mansaka, Manobo (Agusan, Ata, Dibabawon, Sarangani, Ilianen), Maranao, Samal, Subanon (=Subanun), Subanen, Tboli, Southern Taiwan: Rukai, Paiwan, Puyuma, Saaroa, Ketangalan, Karen, Pa-O, Padaung, Kayah, Thai of Vietnam, Tai Lue, Khao (Kho, Tai Don, White Tai), Tai Dam (Black Tai), Nung; Zhuang, Buyi; Shui, Shan, Ahom, Khampti, Katu (Ködu); Bru (incl. Van Kieu, Khua), Khmer, Viet, Muong, Semang, Senoi, Santali, Turi, Mahli, Northern Munda of Kharwar branch: Birhor, Ho, Mundari, Kol, Asur (including Agaria, Kol, Birjhia), Bhumij, Bhuiya (now Aryans, originally Munda; Rahman 1955: 203), Baiga, Bhaina, Bhumia (subgroup of Baiga, incl Bharia, formerly Munda, now speak Indo-Aryan languages of neighboring groups), Juang, Bondo, Didayi (Gata’), Gutob (=Gadaba; cf Dravidian-speaking Gadaba), Sora (Savara, Saora), Parenga, Eastern Arunachal Pradesh: Abor (incl Minyong, Shimong, Padam, Pasi, Panggi), Apa Tani (Apatani), Bori, Bugun, Dafla (=Nyishi, Nisi, Nishing, incl Tagin), Gallong (=Galo, Adi), Mishmi, SW Arunachal Pradesh: Sherdukpen, Tawang (Monpas), Aka (Hrusso), Miji, Chin-Naga: Ao, Mao, Sema, Zeme, Kolren, Kom, Lhota, Rengma, Angami, Kabui, Tangkhul, Koirenf, Northern Naga: Konyak, Lungshang, Wancho, Nokte, Moclum, Lunshan, Chang, Maring, Naga of Myanmar, Garo (Atchik), Kachari (Bodo, incl. Lalung), Dimasa, Tripuri, Riang (of Tripura), Khami, Riga, Mori, Kuki, Chiru, Falam (Hallam), Chin (Meitei =Manipuri, Khami, =Kumi), Lakher, Mizo (Lushei), Anal, Pawi (Lai), Purum, Koireng, Milhiem, Kolhen, Mru, Kachin (Singpho), Chak, Mikir (Karbi), Konds (Khonds; language is Kui, incl Kuttia, Konda-Dora), Koya; Pengo, Gondi (mostly Northern Gondi), Maria, Muria, and other South-Central Dravidians: Binjhwar, Bacop, Bhattra, Bom, Jhoria (=Jhodia), Gadaba (in Koraput, neighbors of Munda-speaking Gadaba), Duruwa (Parji), Mehtar; Pardhan, Indian literary tradition (Vedic, Brahman, Purana, Indian Buddhism, Hinduism, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Panchtantra, Jatakas); iconography of Hindu temples, Telugu (incl. Yanadi, Chenchu), Hindi-speaking peoples and casts (incl. Teli, Parahiya; incl. Chhattisgarhi) of Northern and West-Central India, Chero, Balahi; Lambadi (Banjaaa), Bhils (incl Barela-Bhilala), Warli, Sinhalese; Vedda, Dards (Kalash, Kho, Kohistani, Shina, Pashai), Burusho (Hunza), Early Chinese written sources, Lepcha, Kirati (Kiranti): Rai (incl Thulung), Limbu, Newar, Koreans, Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Balkarians, Macedonians, Balkarians, Slovenians, Slovenes, Romanians, Moldavians, Aromanians, Moldovans, Ancient Greece, Lithuanians, Latvians, Livonians, Estonians, Setu, Finns, Karelians, Eastern Sami (including Skolts), Western Ukrainians, Byelarusians, Belarusians, Russians: Central part of ethnic territory as in A.D. 1500 (Tver, Yaroslavl, Moscow, Kostroma, Vladimir, Ivanovo, Nizhny Novgorod, Ryazan, Tula, Kaluga, Smolensk provinces; in case of absence in other areas also Russians in Vyatka, Perm, Kazan provinces), Rushani, Shughni, Khufi, Bartangi, Iranian literary tradition (including Avesta, Pahlevi scripts, Sah-nameh, Marzban-nameh); Zoroastrians of Iran, Indian Parsees, Zoroastrianism, Cherkassians, Adyghe, Kabardin, Karachays, Balkar, Ingush, Lezgians, Archin, Kürin; Khinalug, Kumyk, Terekemen, Nogai, Svans, Georgians, Kalmyk, Gagauz, Kara Kalpak, Yugur (Sarïg Yogïr, Yellow Uyghur), Kazan (Middle Volga) Tatars, Bashkirs, Mari (Cheremis), Mordvins, Chuvash, Udmurt, Komi (Zyrians and Permyaks), Mansi, Eastern Khanty (Ostyaks), Forest Nenets, Tundra Nenets, Buryats: Western (cis Baikal), Mongols (Khalkha), Monguor (Tu), Shirongol, Khakas, Shor, Siberian Tatars, Southern Altai: Altai proper (Altai-Kiji), Telengit, Altaians, Northern Altai: Chelkan, Kumanda, Tubalar, Altaians, Enets, Nganasans, Southern Selkups, Northern Selkups, Kets, Central Yakuts (Sakha), Tungus (Evenki): Baikal region, Evenks, Tungus (Evenki) of China (Solon, Birar, Oroqen, Manegir), Evenks, Tungus (Evenki): Russian Far East, Evenks, Western Tungus (Evenki), Western Siberia Tungus (Evenki): Sym River, Ket River, Evens (Lamuts), Ainu, Southern and Central; Ryukyu Islands: Yaeyama, Miyako, Okinawa, Udeghe, Oroch, Nanai, Olcha (Ulch), Negidal, Nivkh, Manchu, Kamchadal, Reindeer Koryak, Forest (Upper Kolyma) Yukaghir, Creols of Russkoye Ustye, Chuvans, Russian-speaking Creols of Markovo, Chukchi, St. Lawrence Island Yupik, Central Yupik, Nunivak Island, Chipewyan, Dogrib, Slavey, Hare (incl. Sahtu, or North Slavey), Upper Tanana (Nebesna), Tanacross, Han, Tutchone, Tagish, Inland Tlingit, Kaska, Denaina, Upper Kuskokwim (Kolchan), Koyukon, Gwich’in (Kuchin, Loucheux), Beaver, North Alaskan Inupiat, Mackenzie Delta, Copper, Polar Inuit, Eyak, Tlingit, Haida, Kwakiutl (Kwakwaka’wakw), Bella Coola (Nuxalk), Lenape (Delaware), Northern Saulteaux, Western Ojibwa (Chippewa), Eastern Ojibwa (Missisauga, Timagami and other groups in eastern Ontario), Ottawa, Algonquin, unspecified Algonkians of the Midwest (probably Old Algonquin), Northern Ojibwa (=Severn Ojibwa, Sandy Lake Cree), Western Swampy Cree (incl. Rock Cree), Eastern Swamy Cree, Eastern Cree, Naskapi, Montagnais, Menominee, Sauk (Sak, Mesquakie), Fox, Kickapoo, Potawatomi, Huron (incl Wyandot), Five Nations Iroquois (Seneca, Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga), Tuscarora, Winnebago, Blackfoot, Sarsee (Tsuu T’ina), Shawnee, Yuchi, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Teton (incl Oglala), Santee, Mandan, Osage, Quapaw, Omaha, Ponca, Oto, Iowa, Arikara, Pawnee, Wichita; Spiro Mound iconography, Comanche, Gros Ventre, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwa, Assiniboine, Crow, Hidatsa, Carrier, Shuswap, Thompson (Nlaka’pamux), Lkungen (Straits; including Samish, Songish, Sooke, Lummi), Klallam, Lower Chehalis, Upper Chehalis, (Lower) Cowlitz, Western Sahaptin (Upper Cowlitz, Klikitat, Tenino, Umatilla, Yakima, Wallawalla), Oregon Athabaskans: Lower Umpqua, Tututni (incl Joshua), Upper Coquille, Galice, Tolowa, Coos, Okanagon, Sanpoil, Klamath, Modoc, Yurok, Wiyot, Chitimacha, Alabama, Koasati, Creek, Seminole; Tuskegee; iconography of Kentucky Hopewell, Choctaw, Chicasaw, Cherokee, Yuki (Yuki proper, Coastal Yuki, Huchnob), Pomo, Wintu, Patwin, Nomlaki, Maidu, Nisenan, Konkov, Sierra Miwok, Coastal Miwok, Atsugewi, Achomavi, Yokuts, Northern Foothills Yokuts (Chukchansi, Dumna, Kechayi), Salinan, Kawaiisu, Mono (Monache), Tubatulabal, Owens Valley Paiute, Northern Paiute (=Paviotso), Bannock, Eastern Shoshone, Upland Yuma: Walapai, Havasupai, Yavapai, Ute, Southern Paiute, Chemehuevi, Cahuilla, Cupeño, Navajo, Jicarilla, Western Apache (White Mountain, San Carlos), Hopi, Zuni, Western Keres (Acoma, Laguna), Tewa (San Juan, Santa Clara, San Ildefonso, Tesuque, Nambe; Hano), Tiwa (Taos, Picuris; Sandia, Isleta), Towa (Jemez), Lipan, Cocopa, Yuma proper (Quechan), Mohave, Maricopa, Seri, Pima, Papago, Warihio (Guarijío), Tarahumara, Huichol, Cora, Quiche, Achí, Cakchiquel, Pocomchi, Pocomam, Chinantec, Mazatec, Mixtec, Trique, Cuicatec; Amuzgo, Oaxaca Mixe, Chol; pre-Columbian Mayan iconography outside of Yucatan, Chorti, Lacandon, Bribri, Cabecar, Terraba; Chiriqui (AD 800-1500) iconography, Guaymi, Bocota, Dorasque; XVI century data on Western Panama, Cuna; XVI century data on Eastern Panama, Kogi (Cagaba), Sanha, Creols of Aritama Valley, Tunebo, Muisca, Muzo, Yupa (Yukpa), Sicuani, Guayabero, Piaroa, Macuxi, Wayana, Aparai, Siona, Secoya, Coreguaje, Napo (Quijo), Kanelo (“Jungle Kechua”), Kofan, Shuar, Achuar (Shiwiar), Barasana, Taibano, Macuna, Desana, Siriano; Tatuyo, Bara, Tuyuca, Letuama, Tanimuca, Ufaina, Yahuna, Baniwa (incl. Wakuenai), Bare, Piapoco, Curripaco, Siusi, Guarikena , Tariana, Witoto, Ocaina, Bora, Northern Peru: Sierra (Kechua-speaking communities, Cajamarca, Ancash, Huanuco and San Martin departments; Chavin pre-Columbian iconography; Spanish sources of XVI-XVII centuries), Pasco, Junin, Huancavelica departments: Central Peru, Sierra (Kechua-speaking communities in Spanish sources XVI-XVII centuries), Amuesha, Ashaninca (Campa), Machiguenga, Cashibo, Tacana, Moseten, Chimane, Bolivian Guarani: Chiriguano (including assimilated Chane Arawaks), Pauserna (=Guarasu), Guarayu, Tapiete, Kamayura, Paresi, Kaingang, Xokleng, Sheta, Chamacoco (Ishir), Mataco, Nivakle (=Chulupi, Ashluslay, Ajlujlay), Chorote, Toba (incl Pilaga), Terena (Tereno) , Guarani of Paraguay and Brazil: Caygua, Mbia, Apapocuva, Nyandewa, Chiripa, Northern and Southern Tehuelche, Kpelle (incl Kono), Mende, Loma, Gbunde (Gbandi, Bandi), Central Tibetans (Yu Tsang, incl. Sikkim Tibetans, Tichurong of NW Nepal), Kodiak, Tokelau, Evens (Lamuts) of Kamchatka, Sulu, Pamun, Samal, Taosug, Chulym Turks, Yellowknife, Mongols of Inner Mongolia, Japan AD 700-1700, Xinka, Papua-New Guinea Northern Lowland Papuan groups (Trans New Guinea and unclassified): Komba, Gimi, Susure, Orokaiva, Bogadjim, Ngain, Sentani, Bargam, Imonda, Nankina, Yupta Valley, Urawa Valley, Warupu (Barupu), Pondoma (Anam), Western Yakuts (Sakha): Olekma and Vilyuy Basins, Northwestern Yakuts (Sakha): Yessey, Anabar, Olenyok and Lower Lena Basins, Northeastern Yakuts (Sakha): Yana, Indigirka and Kolyma Basins, Southern Altai: Teleut, Russian Pomors (“seasiders): Arkhangelsk province without its southern part (Shengur district and Konosha dstrict), Karelia White Sea coast, Russians: Vologda province (incl. Belozersk, Kirillov and Cherepovets districts of form. Novgorod Province), Russians: Novgorod and Pskov provinces, Eastern Ukrainians, Northern Ukrainians, Early Russian written sources, Russians: Southern part of ethnic territory as in A.D. 1500 (Belgorod, Voronezh, Tambov, Penza, Lipetsk, Orel, Kursk, Bryansk provinces; in case of absence in other areas also Russians in Samara, Simbirsk and Saratov provinces), Buryats: Eastern (trans Baikal), i.e. Khori, Terek Cossacks, Laurentian Iroquois, Rusyns, Hutsuls, Russians: Olonets province/SE Karelia, Shengur district of Arkhangelsk province, Ilimpii Tungus/Evenki, Tungus/Evenki of Nercha – Chita area

I think the Mythology Database is a good tool, but it does have errors, like how the error I got with clicking on B1e: Extracting land from the ocean floor or from the lower world, creating a person from some material, and an antagonist’s attempt to destroy human figures – successive episodes are a single narrative. However, when doing a Narrative Search: Extracting land from the ocean floor, you get 0.

Also listed in relation to B3 motif are: 

From John’s Mythology Database

Clicking on C6: C6, C6a, C6b, C6c, C6c1, C6d, C6e, C6f, C6g, C6h, C6i, C6j Characters dive to the bottom to get an item.

The motifs are:
C6. Diver
C6A. The diver is a turtle/frog
C6B. A diver is a muskrat, nutria, a beaver
C6c1. Birds: Successful and Unsuccessful Divers
C6C. A diver is a bird
C6D. Getting land, A811 (Includes Earth Diver)
C6E. Diver — crayfish, shrimp
C6F. Get a drowned person
C6G. The diver is a boar
C6H. The insect is extracting land
C6i. The adhering dirt turns into the ground

This motif has been recorded in 195 traditions: Bushmen (all groups), Southeast Australia: Kamilaroi, Yualarai (Ualarai, Euahlayi), Milpulo (Mailpurgu), Wuradjeri (Wiradjurim, Wiradjeri, Wurundjeri, Yarra, Yarra Yarra), Wongaibon (Wonghibon), Noongahburrah (Narran, Narran River), Kurnai, and many others (see file 0.doc), Southern Solomons: southern part of Santa Ysabel (Bughotu), Guadalcanal, San Cristobal, Malaita, Ulawa, Shan, Ahom, Khampti, Semang, Senoi, Santali, Turi, Mahli, Northern Munda of Kharwar branch: Birhor, Ho, Mundari, Kol, Asur (including Agaria, Kol, Birjhia), Bhumij, Bhuiya (now Aryans, originally Munda; Rahman 1955: 203), Baiga, Bhaina, Bhumia (subgroup of Baiga, incl Bharia, formerly Munda, now speak Indo-Aryan languages of neighboring groups), Bondo, Didayi (Gata’), Gutob (=Gadaba; cf Dravidian-speaking Gadaba), Sora (Savara, Saora), Parenga, Eastern Arunachal Pradesh: Abor (incl Minyong, Shimong, Padam, Pasi, Panggi), Apa Tani (Apatani), Bori, Bugun, Dafla (=Nyishi, Nisi, Nishing, incl Tagin), Gallong (=Galo, Adi), Mishmi, Chin-Naga: Ao, Mao, Sema, Zeme, Kolren, Kom, Lhota, Rengma, Angami, Kabui, Tangkhul, Koirenf, Garo (Atchik), Kachari (Bodo, incl. Lalung), Dimasa, Tripuri, Riang (of Tripura), Khami, Riga, Mori, Kachin (Singpho), Chak, Mikir (Karbi), Oraon (Kurukh), Konds (Khonds; language is Kui, incl Kuttia, Konda-Dora), Koya; Pengo, Gondi (mostly Northern Gondi), Maria, Muria, and other South-Central Dravidians: Binjhwar, Bacop, Bhattra, Bom, Jhoria (=Jhodia), Gadaba (in Koraput, neighbors of Munda-speaking Gadaba), Duruwa (Parji), Mehtar; Pardhan, Indian literary tradition (Vedic, Brahman, Purana, Indian Buddhism, Hinduism, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Panchtantra, Jatakas); iconography of Hindu temples, Hindi-speaking peoples and casts (incl. Teli, Parahiya; incl. Chhattisgarhi) of Northern and West-Central India, Chero, Bhils (incl Barela-Bhilala), Sinhalese; Vedda, Dards (Kalash, Kho, Kohistani, Shina, Pashai), Burusho (Hunza), Kirati (Kiranti): Rai (incl Thulung), Limbu, Newar, Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Balkarians, Macedonians, Balkarians, Slovenians, Slovenes, Romanians, Moldavians, Aromanians, Moldovans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Finns, Karelians, Byelarusians, Belarusians, Russians: Central part of ethnic territory as in A.D. 1500 (Tver, Yaroslavl, Moscow, Kostroma, Vladimir, Ivanovo, Nizhny Novgorod, Ryazan, Tula, Kaluga, Smolensk provinces; in case of absence in other areas also Russians in Vyatka, Perm, Kazan provinces), Karachays, Balkar, Nogai, Gagauz, Kara Kalpak, Kazan (Middle Volga) Tatars, Bashkirs, Mari (Cheremis), Mordvins, Chuvash, Udmurt, Komi (Zyrians and Permyaks), Mansi, Eastern Khanty (Ostyaks), Forest Nenets, Tundra Nenets, Buryats: Western (cis Baikal), Mongols (Khalkha), Khakas, Shor, Siberian Tatars, Southern Altai: Altai proper (Altai-Kiji), Telengit, Altaians, Northern Altai: Chelkan, Kumanda, Tubalar, Altaians, Enets, Nganasans, Southern Selkups, Northern Selkups, Kets, Central Yakuts (Sakha), Tungus (Evenki): Baikal region, Evenks, Tungus (Evenki): Russian Far East, Evenks, Western Tungus (Evenki), Western Siberia Tungus (Evenki): Sym River, Ket River, Evens (Lamuts), Nanai, Olcha (Ulch), Negidal, Reindeer Koryak, Forest (Upper Kolyma) Yukaghir, Creols of Russkoye Ustye, Chuvans, Russian-speaking Creols of Markovo, St. Lawrence Island Yupik, Chipewyan, Dogrib, Slavey, Hare (incl. Sahtu, or North Slavey), Upper Tanana (Nebesna), Tanacross, Han, Tutchone, Tagish, Inland Tlingit, Kaska, Upper Kuskokwim (Kolchan), Koyukon, Gwich’in (Kuchin, Loucheux), Beaver, Tlingit, Haida, Kwakiutl (Kwakwaka’wakw), Nootka (Nu-chah-nulth), Makah, Bella Coola (Nuxalk), Lenape (Delaware), Malecite, Passamaquoddy, Northern Saulteaux, Western Ojibwa (Chippewa), Eastern Ojibwa (Missisauga, Timagami and other groups in eastern Ontario), Ottawa, Algonquin, unspecified Algonkians of the Midwest (probably Old Algonquin), Northern Ojibwa (=Severn Ojibwa, Sandy Lake Cree), Western Swampy Cree (incl. Rock Cree), Eastern Swamy Cree, Eastern Cree, Naskapi, Montagnais, Menominee, Sauk (Sak, Mesquakie), Fox, Kickapoo, Potawatomi, Huron (incl Wyandot), Five Nations Iroquois (Seneca, Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga), Tuscarora, Blackfoot, Sarsee (Tsuu T’ina), Shawnee, Yuchi, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Teton (incl Oglala), Santee, Mandan, Quapaw, Iowa, Arikara, Gros Ventre, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibwa, Assiniboine, Crow, Hidatsa, Carrier, Shuswap, Thompson (Nlaka’pamux), Lkungen (Straits; including Samish, Songish, Sooke, Lummi), Klallam, Lower Chehalis, Upper Chehalis, (Lower) Cowlitz, Western Sahaptin (Upper Cowlitz, Klikitat, Tenino, Umatilla, Yakima, Wallawalla), Nez Perce, Tillamook, Takelma, Okanagon, Sanpoil, Lower Chinook (Chinook proper), Klamath, Modoc, Chitimacha, Alabama, Koasati, Creek, Seminole; Tuskegee; iconography of Kentucky Hopewell, Cherokee, Yuki (Yuki proper, Coastal Yuki, Huchnob), Pomo, Wintu, Patwin, Nomlaki, Maidu, Nisenan, Konkov, Sierra Miwok, Yokuts, Northern Foothills Yokuts (Chukchansi, Dumna, Kechayi), Salinan, Kawaiisu, Mono (Monache), Tubatulabal, Bannock, Western Shoshone, Gosiute, Navajo, Seri, Pima, Warihio (Guarijío), Tarahumara, Rama, Guatuso, Choco: Embera, Nonama (Waunana), XVI century Dabaiba, pre-Columbian iconography of Sinu, Yupa (Yukpa), Wapishana (incl Ataroi); Mapidian; Taruma, Macuxi, Pemon: Arekuna (incl. Kamarakoto), Taulipang (Taurepan), Siona, Secoya, Coreguaje, Central Tibetans (Yu Tsang, incl. Sikkim Tibetans, Tichurong of NW Nepal), Upper Chinook: Wasco, Wishram, Clackamas, Kathlamet, Chulym Turks, Yellowknife, Japan AD 700-1700, Western Yakuts (Sakha): Olekma and Vilyuy Basins, Northwestern Yakuts (Sakha): Yessey, Anabar, Olenyok and Lower Lena Basins, Northeastern Yakuts (Sakha): Yana, Indigirka and Kolyma Basins, Southern Altai: Teleut, Russian Pomors (“seasiders): Arkhangelsk province without its southern part (Shengur district and Konosha dstrict), Karelia White Sea coast, Russians: Vologda province (incl. Belozersk, Kirillov and Cherepovets districts of form. Novgorod Province), Eastern Ukrainians, Northern Ukrainians, Early Russian written sources, Russians: Southern part of ethnic territory as in A.D. 1500 (Belgorod, Voronezh, Tambov, Penza, Lipetsk, Orel, Kursk, Bryansk provinces; in case of absence in other areas also Russians in Samara, Simbirsk and Saratov provinces), Lutsi (Ludza), Terek Cossacks, Rusyns, Hutsuls, Russians: Olonets province/SE Karelia, Shengur district of Arkhangelsk province, Tungus/Evenki of Nercha – Chita area

C6 Diver: Characters dive to the bottom to get an item

Location / Tradition: Gros Ventre, Crow, Mansi, Mivoc

C6A The diver is a turtle/frog: The desired object is brought from the bottom (or from the lower world) or destroyed by a turtle, toad/frog

Location / Tradition: Lake Miwok, Plains Miwok

C6c3 Loon is a successful diver

Location / Tradition: Koryaks

C6c4 Duck is a successful diver

Location / Tradition: Arapaho, Batulabal, Mandan

C6j1 Earth is brought by the antagonist of the deity

Location / Tradition: Armenians

G6 The First Tree: One of the trees is the main thing, the original, something very different from the others (the first to arise; the ancestor of trees; the ancestor of wild or cultivated plants; the sea and the rivers within it; the world’s axis; above the others; obscures the sky).

Location / Tradition: Armenians

I11 Space turtle/toad: turtle (toad, frog) serves as the support (embodiment) of the earth (sky).

Location / Tradition: Lake Miwok, Plains Miwok, Karachays, Balkar

I11a The earth is fixed on the back of a turtle (frog)

Location / Tradition: Huron (incl Wyandot), Five Nations Iroquois (Seneca, Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Cayuga)

Cosmic ocean

“A cosmic ocean, cosmic sea, primordial waters, or celestial river is a mythological motif that represents the world or cosmos enveloped by a vast primordial ocean. Found in many cultures and civilizations, the cosmic ocean exists before the creation of the Earth. The cosmic ocean can also represent or embody the chaos that some myths perceive as predetermined. The primacy of the water in some creation myths corresponds to the cosmological model of land surrounded by the world ocean. The sky is often thought of as something like the upper sea. The emergence of our Earth with its air and visible eruptions of fire from a pre-existing chaos or even freshwater ocean like the Mesopotamien Abzu is usually presented as a elementary factor of a first cosmic order, followed by the narrative of a flood catastrophe. Current research shows that these globally widespread flood myths – described in the epic Athrahasis as the gods’ intention to destroy their human creations – probablyhave a real background, namely the relatively sudden rise in sea level at the end of the last ice age.” ref

“The cosmic ocean takes form in the mythology of Yazidism, Ahl-e Haqq, Alevism, Ancient Egyptian mythology, Ancient Greek mythology, Canaanite mythology, Ancient Hindu mythology, Ancient Iranian, Sumerian, Zoroastrianism, Ancient Roman mythology and many other world mythologies.” ref

“In ancient creation texts, the primordial waters are often represented as having filled the entire universe and are the first source of the gods. The act of creation is the establishment of an inhabitable space separate from the enveloping waters. The cosmic ocean is the shape of the universe before creation. The ocean is boundless, unordered, unorganized, amorphous, formless, dangerous, terrible. In some myths, its cacophony is noted, opposed to the ordered rhythm of the sea. Chaos can be personified as water or by the unorganized interaction of water and fire, The transformation of chaos into order is also the transition from water to land. In many ancient cosmogonic myths, the ocean and chaos are equivalent and inseparable from each other. The ocean remains outside space even after the emergence of the land. At the same time, the ability of the ocean to generate is realized in the appearance of the Earth from it and in the presence of a mythological creature in the ocean that promotes generation or, on the contrary, zealously defends the “old order” and prevents the beginning of the chain of births from the ocean.” ref

“Yuri E. Berezkin: Doctor of Historical Sciences, Head of American department, Peter the Great Museum of Anthropology and Ethnography (the Kunstkamera) of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Professor of the European University at Saint Petersburg, Department of Anthropology.” ref

“MAIN RESEARCH TOPICS: The areal distribution of folklore and mythological motifs as a source of data on ancient migration processes; cultural contacts and interaction spheres; peopling of the New World; pre-state complex societies; iconography of Native American art; archaeology of Near and Middle Asia.” ref

“Yu. E. Berezkin and E. N. Duvakin generalize the motif of primary waters as follows: “Waters are primary. The Earth is launched into the water, appears above the water, grows from a piece of solid substance placed on the surface of the water or liquid mud, from an island in the ocean, is exposed when the waters subsided, etc.” The idea of the primacy of the ocean as an element, from the bowels of which the Earth arises or is created, is universally prevalent. This representation is present in many mythologies of the world.” ref

“In Asia and North America, the Earth-diver myth is found. In this myth a creator god dives into the cosmic ocean to bring up and form the Earth. A diving bird, catching a lump of earth from the primordial ocean, often appears in the mythologies of the Native Americans and Siberian peoples. In totemic myths, bird people are often presented as ancestors. Eggs are a common theme in creation myths. A waterfowl extracts silt from the sea, from which land is gradually created.” ref

“In the mythologies of many Asian countries, in which there is an image of an endless and eternal primordial ocean or sea, there is a motif of the creation of the Earth by a celestial being descending from the sky and interfering with the water of the ocean with an iron club, spear or other object. This results in condensation which gives rise to the Earth. In Japanese mythology, the islands of Japan arose from dirty foam raised by mixing the waters of the ocean with a spear of gods (Izanagi and Izanami). In the mythologies of the Mongolian peoples, the role of the compactor of the ocean waters is played by the wind, which creates a special milky substance out of them, which then becomes the earth’s firmament.” ref

“According to the Kalmyks (nomadic Mongols, who migrated from Western Mongolia to Eastern Europe three times), plants, animals, people and deities were born from this milky liquid. Hindu Mythology has a similar myth about the Churning of the Ocean. Myths about the world’s oceans are universally accompanied by myths about its containment when the earth was already created, and myths about the attempts of the ocean to regain its undivided dominance. In Chinese mythology, there is the idea of a giant depression or pit that determines the direction of the ocean waters and takes away excess water. In many mythologies there are numerous narratives regarding the flood.” ref

“The opposition of two types of myths is known (for example, in Oceania) – about the Earth sinking in the ocean, and about the retreat of the ocean. An example of the first type is the legend about the origin of Easter Island, recorded on this island. In the creation myth of the Nganasan people (a Uralic people in north Siberia), at first the Earth was completely covered with water, then the water subsides and exposes the top of the Shaitan ridge Koika-mou. The first two people fall to this peak – a man and a woman. In the myth of creation of the Tuamotu Islands, the creator Tāne, “Spilling Water”, created the world in the waters of the lord of the waters, Pune, and invoked the light that initiated the creation of the Earth.” ref

“In Polynesian mythology (Polynesia is a major subregion of Oceania), Maui fishes islands, used his magical fishhook, to pull islands up from the ocean floor. In Scandinavian mythology, the gods raise the Earth, and Thor catches Jörmungandr from the bottom of the ocean. In ancient Egyptian mythology, the Earth itself comes to the surface in the form of a mound. In Hindu Puranas, when Hiranyaksha hid the Earth in the cosmic ocean, Lord Vishnu took the Varaha (boar) avatar to save it.” ref

“Mythical creatures from chaos, defeated and victorious, shackled and released, overthrown and restored, always continue to exist on the outskirts of space, along the shores of the oceans, in the underground “lower” world, in the above ground “upper” world. Other evil creatures were killed in these mythologies by the deities also. So, in Scandinavian mythology, frost giants precede time, and in space they are located on the outskirts of the Earth’s circle, in cold places, near the oceans. The motif of the cosmogonic struggle with the serpent and its killing is widespread in terms of suppressing water chaos. The serpent in most mythologies is associated with water, often as its abductor. It threatens either with a flood or a drought, that is, a violation of the measure, the water “balance.” ref

“Since the cosmos is identified with order and measure, chaos is associated with the violation of measure. The Egyptian Ra fights and kills the underground serpent Apep, the Hindu Indra fights and kills the demon Vritra, who took the form of a snake, the Mesopotamian Enki, Ninurta and Inanna fight with Kur and kill him, the Iranian Tishtry (Sirius) – with the deva Aposhi Tishtry kills Aposhi. The killed Apep, Vritra, Kur and Aposhi hold back the cosmic waters. Marduk defeats and kills the progenitors Tiamat and Apsu before resurrecting them back together, the deities of the dark waters of chaos, who has taken the form of snakes. There are stories in Canaanite mythology about the struggle of the Canaanite deities with monstrous snakes, which also represents water chaos (Rahab, Tehom, Leviathan) and these monstrous snakes are all killed by the Canaanite deities. Yu the Great‘s heroic struggle with the cosmic flood ends with the killing of the insidious owner of the water Gungun and his “close associate” – the nine-headed Xiangliu.” ref

“The transition from the formless water element to land is the most important act necessary for the transformation of chaos into space. The next step in the same direction is the separation of the sky from the Earth, which, perhaps, essentially coincides with the first act, given the initial identification of the sky with the oceans. But it was precisely the repetition of the act – first down, and then up – that led to the allocation of three spheres – earthly, heavenly and underground, which represents the transition from binary division to trinity. The middle sphere, the earth, opposes the watery world below and the heavenly world above. A trichotomous scheme of the cosmos arises, including the necessary space between Earth and sky. This space is often represented as a cosmic tree. Earth and sky are almost universally represented as feminine and masculine, a married couple standing at the beginning of a theogonic or theocosmogonic process. At the same time, the feminine and masculine principles are associated with the element of water and with chaos; usually they are conceived on the side of “nature” rather than “culture.” ref

Ancient Near Eastern cosmology

“The cosmology of the ancient Near East refers to beliefs about where the universe came from, how it developed, and its physical layout, in the ancient Near East, an area that corresponds with the Middle East today (including Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia, the Levant, Anatolia, and the Arabian Peninsula). The many civilizations of the ancient Near East shared most of their main views about the structure of the cosmos, a situation which held for thousands of years. The basic understanding of the world in this region from premodern times included a flat earth, a solid layer or barrier above the sky (the firmament), a cosmic ocean located above the firmament, a region above the cosmic ocean where the gods lived, and a netherworld located at the furthest region in the direction down. Creation myths explained where the universe came from, including which gods created it (and how), as well as how humanity was created. These beliefs are attested as early as the fourth millennium BCE 6,000-5,000 years ago and dominated until the modern era, with the only major competing system being the Hellenistic cosmology that developed in Ancient Greece in the mid-1st millennium BCE.” ref

“Geographically, these views are known from the Mesopotamian cosmologies from Babylonia, Sumer, and Akkad; the Levantine or West Semitic cosmologies from Ugarit and ancient Israel and Judah (the biblical cosmology); the Egyptian cosmology from Ancient Egypt; and the Anatolian cosmologies from the Hittites. This system of cosmology went on to have a profound influence on views in early Greek cosmology, later Jewish cosmology, patristic cosmology, and Islamic cosmology (including Quranic cosmology). The cosmology of the ancient Near East can be divided into cosmography, the understanding of the physical structure and features of the cosmos, and cosmogony, the creation myths describing the origins of the cosmos. The cosmos and the gods were also related, as cosmic bodies like heaven, earth, the stars were believed to be and/or personified as gods, and the sizes of the gods were frequently described as being of cosmic proportions. There is evidence that Mesopotamian creation myths reached as far as Pre-Islamic Arabia.” ref

Creation of the cosmos

“The world was thought to be created ex materia. That is, out of pre-existing, and unformed, eternal matter. This is in contrast to the later notion of creation ex nihilo, which asserts that all the matter of the universe was created out of nothing. The primeval substance had always existed, was unformed, divine, and was envisioned as an immense, cosmic, chaotic mass of water or ocean (a representation that still existed in the time of Ovid). In the Mesopotamian theogonic process, the gods would be ultimately generated from this primeval matter, although a distinct process is found in the Hebrew Bible where God is initially distinct from the primeval matter. For the cosmos and the gods to ultimately emerge from this formless cosmic ocean, the idea emerged that it had to be separated into distinct parts and therefore be formed or organized. This event can be imagined of as the beginning of time. Furthermore, the process of the creation of the cosmos is coincident or equivalent to the beginning of the creation of new gods. In the 3rd millennium BCE 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the goddess Nammu was the one and singular representation of the original cosmic ocean in Mesopotamian cosmology.” ref

“From the 2nd millennium BCE or 4,000 years ago onwards, this cosmic ocean came to be represented by two gods, Tiamat and Abzu who would be separated from each other to mark the cosmic beginning. The Ugaritic god Yam from the Baal Cycle may also represent the primeval ocean. Sumerian and Akkadian sources understand the matter of the primordial universe out of which the cosmos emerges in different ways. Sumerian thought distinguished between the inanimate matter that the cosmos was made of and the animate and living matter that permeated the gods and went on to be transmitted to humans. In Akkadian sources, the cosmos is originally alive and animate, but the deaths of Abzu (male deity of the fresh waters) and Tiamat (female sea goddess) give rise to inanimate matter, and all inanimate matter is derived from the dead remains of these deities. The cosmic union, or marriage, of heaven and earth is spoken of in ancient Near Eastern texts stretching back to the 3rd millennium BCE. The first source that mentions their separation is from the late 3rd millennium BCE, known as the Song of the hoe. During the 2nd millennium BCE, these texts shift in their focus from the union to the separation of heaven and earth, as shown by Sumerian, Akkadian, Phoenician, Egyptian, and Greek mythologies.” ref

Cosmography (structure of the cosmos)

“Widely held beliefs about cosmography included:

• a flat earth and a solid heaven (firmament), both of which are disk-shaped
• a primordial cosmic ocean. When the firmament is created, it separates the cosmic ocean into two bodies of water:
• the heavenly upper waters located on top of the firmament, which act as a source of rain
• the lower waters that the earth is above and that the earth rests on; they act as the source of rivers, springs, and other earthly bodies of water
• the region above the upper waters, namely the abode of the gods
• the netherworld, the furthest region in the direction downwards, below the lower waters” ref

“The firmament was believed to be a solid boundary above the Earth, separating it from the upper or celestial waters. In the Book of Genesis, it is called the raqia. In ancient Egyptian texts, and from texts across the Near East generally, the firmament was described as having special doors or gateways on the eastern and western horizons to allow for the passage of heavenly bodies during their daily journeys. These were known as the windows of heaven or the gates of heaven. Canaanite text describe Baal as exerting his control over the world by controlling the passage of rainwater through the heavenly windows in the firmament. In Egyptian texts particularly, these gates also served as conduits between the earthly and heavenly realms for which righteous people could ascend. The gateways could be blocked by gates to prevent entry by the deceased as well. As such, funerary texts included prayers enlisting the help of the gods to enable the safe ascent of the dead. Ascent to the celestial realm could also be done by a celestial ladder made by the gods. Multiple stories exist in Mesopotamian texts whereby certain figures ascend to the celestial realm and are given the secrets of the gods.” ref

“Four different Egyptian models of the firmament and/or the heavenly realm are known. One model was that it was the shape of a bird: the firmament above represented the underside of a flying falcon, with the sun and moon representing its eyes, and its flapping causing the wind that humans experience. The second was a cow, as per the Book of the Heavenly Cow. The cosmos is a giant celestial cow represented by the goddess Nut or Hathor. The cow consumed the sun in the evening and rebirthed it in the next morning. The third is a celestial woman, also represented by Nut. The heavenly bodies would travel across her body from east to west. The midriff of Nut was supported by Shu (the air god) and Geb (the earth god) lay outstretched between the arms and feet of Nut. Nut consumes the celestial bodies from the west and gives birth to them again in the following morning. The stars are inscribed across the belly of Nut and one needs to identify with one of them, or a constellation, in order to join them after death. The fourth model was a flat (or slightly convex) celestial plane which, depending on the text, was thought to be supported in various ways: by pillars, staves, scepters, or mountains at the extreme ends of the Earth. The four supports give rise to the motif of the “four corners of the world.” ref

“Paul Keyser categorizes the cosmology of the ancient Near East into a larger, cross-cultural group of cosmologies that he calls a “cradle cosmology”, and Keyser suggests an even larger number of shared features between them all. Some misconceptions are held about Near Eastern cosmography. One misconception is the idea that ziggurats were considered cosmic objects that reached all the way up to heaven. Another misconception is that the firmament was shaped like a dome or a vault, whereas in reality, it was believed to be flat. Another controversy concerns whether the ancients thought this cosmography was literal or observational (phenomenological). John Hilber argues that ancient Near Eastern cosmography was not phenomenological for many reasons, including: based on the descriptions provided by cosmological texts, that non-cosmological texts assume the reality of this cosmography (like in incantations), anthropological studies showing that there are primitive cosmologies still believed in today and that these are not phenomenological, and that there is a cognitive expectation that humans will construct models to explain the observations they make, and that the cosmography described in cosmological texts would have played this role.” ref

“Lisman uses the broader category of “Beginnings” to encompass three separate though inter-related categories: the beginning of the cosmos (cosmogony), the beginning of the gods (theogony), and the beginning of humankind (anthropogeny).” ref

Cosmogony (creation of the cosmos)

“Many widely held beliefs permeated the creation myths of ancient Near Eastern cosmogony:

• Creatio ex materia from a primordial state of chaos; that is, the organization of the world from pre-existing, unordered and unformed (hence chaotic) elements, represented by a primordial body of water
• the presence of a divine creator
• the Chaoskampf motif: a cosmic battle between the protagonist and a primordial sea monster
• the separation of undifferentiated elements (to create heaven and earth)
• the creation of mankind” ref

World Turtle

“The World Turtle, also called the Cosmic Turtle or the World-Bearing Turtle, is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. It occurs in India, China, North America, and Southern Africa, such as in Hinduism, Chinese mythology, and the mythologies of some of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. The comparative mythology of the World-Tortoise discussed by Edward Burnett Tylor (1878: 341) includes the counterpart World Elephant. World Turtle in Hinduism is known as Akūpāra, or sometimes Chukwa. An example of a reference to the World Turtle in Hindu literature is found in Jñānarāja. In the Chinese mythology, the creator goddess Nüwa cut the legs off the giant sea turtle Ao and used them to prop up the sky after Gong Gong damaged Mount Buzhou, which had previously supported the heavens. Lenape creation story of the “Great Turtle,” belief is shared by other indigenous peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands, most notably those of the Haudenosanee confederacy, and the Anishinaabeg. Huron “Wyandot” (also Wyandotte) Indigenous people who emerged in the Great Lakes region, great turtle which upholds the earth. The usilosimapundu of Zulu folklore also bears some similarities to the world turtle. It is a creature so large that it contains many countries and that one side of it experiences a different season than the other side.” ref

ref (The Oldest Flood Myth and its Origin)

ref

“Mapping Flood Myths is a project that looks at flood myths, stories, and legends from all over the world by mapping the locations of these myths on an interactive web map. Water, as the source of all life, has the power to create and destroy. Floods, prior to modern meteorology, would have been seen as acts of the divine, leading to the creation of flood myths, stories, and legends from many civilizations. The power of water transcends time and connects all of humankind. Present-day examples include hurricanes (in the United States, such as Katrina, Maria, and Irene, to name a few) and tsunamis (in Japan, such as Fukushima). A majority of the current flood myth analyses have targeted Eurocentric civilizations (ex, Noah’s Ark/Christianity, Gilgamesh’s flood/Babylon, and Deucalion’s flood/Greek). This project can allow for flood myths from other civilizations to be discovered and further researched. All of the data at this time was collected from The Flood in World Myth and Folklore by Mark Isaak. More information on the data can be found on the Data tab.” ref

“Ashley Rojas created Mapping Flood Myths. They are a student at The Graduate Center, CUNY. I created Mapping Flood Myths as my capstone for the master’s program for Digital Humanities. Ashley Rojas received a bachelor’s degree in Classical Archaeology and Classical Studies, with a minor in Computer Science. They are interested in the relationships between cultures that can be found in their artifacts or stories. Whether directly influenced by one another or not, the similarities between different civilizations are fascinating. One such similarity is the creation of flood myths. As a visual learner, they wanted to be able to map the locations of such flood myths to see what connections may arise from where or when they were created. This project is a start to learning more about these connections and researching how these myths started. Learn more about them and their other projects at my website, arojas1.github.io.” ref

Before I start pointing out what I find needs more thought or rethinking, I want to challenge thinking to aid in the pursuit of a clearer truth. I like John White (an expert) as a mythology teacher and his vast mythology knowledge, which he shares freely. I appreciate John’s efforts and work on mythology and folklore, and I appreciate his  Mythology and Folklore Database, which is very helpful and a good overall research tool.

I am going to make my words in blue and John’s in red throughout this compiled information, so who is talking is easier to understand, and there are fewer chances of confusion.

Who should win? The Truth or one of Our EGO’s? Truth is best championed in the sunlight of challenge, not protecting claims or beliefs from challenge.

I respect John as a thoughtful educator striving to do his best, so I will assume only unintended errors, and not anything intentionally wrong, nor any ill intent.

Go check out Crecganford (YouTube) @Crecganford it is a good channel overall. I enjoy his myth knowledge, and I mostly agree with what he says, but I am skeptical or don’t agree with this thinking on myth origins and extreme times he throws out on believed myth ages. 

I understand the issue is when they are not thoughtfully addressed, or if they are unreasonably defended or outright denied. I understand that when identifying areas that may need rethinking, it could seem personal, and accepting them is harder. I strive to weigh if areas that I may need rethinking, even if it seems personal, if the challenge has merit, not if it was offered in a negative way against me. I see things as a philosopher, thus I look for the merit in all challenges put against me, regardless of whether offered kindly or meanly, as I wonder if they are at all valid or if things addressed have any good points. I also strive to offer challenges addressing valid points with merit. I prefer thoughtful addressing of challenges and understand the need to strive to do likewise.

I also understand John offered his rationale for using a “royal we” to my point of not liking how he was using “we and us” to address the research of others. I will accept this is around him, just using differences in speech.

I am not listing all the thinking I think can or should be rethought, but I will offer a few quickly now. In the mythology videos offered (by John White), at least three completely different maps of the Earth Diver myths. So they all cannot be accurate, and the differences should have been explained or addressed, especially if one thinks this does not need rethinking. The mythology videos offered (by John White) seem to provide more than one time and place Earth Diver myths originate (45,000 in Southeast Asia and 70/75,000 years ago in Africa), not explaining either the fact that you used different maps of the myth or different dates and places. So they all cannot be accurate, and the differences should have been explained or addressed, especially if one thinks this does not need rethinking. The mythology videos offered (by John White) seem to often limit Earth Diver myths to sounding like they are limited to bird myths when trying to propose that they emerged into Bird scout myths. As an expert, one would know that Earth Diver myths involve many different animals, and this should have been addressed regardless of whether it made the link to other myths less clear or took more explanation. 

And now, let me outline a timeline that highlights my way of thinking about migration, starting with migrations out of Africa. Humans left Africa (out of Africa theory: about 70,000–50,000 years ago ref) with some core mythology that was later changed in different areas, evolving as people spread out, experiencing different things, and adapting to differing lifeways. There is an error in my thinking that myths in Africa, Australia, or South America have to show they must be very old, even to be limited to the migration related to the out of Africa theory, misses that there were other later migrations that could have and likely did spread later evolved mythology themes. Such as the many back migrations to Africa, which started 30,000 years ago.

Africa 1. I see it as an error to only address mythology getting to Southeast Asia and Australia in the earliest migrations and not address the equally early migrations into Europe. Genetically following an “out of Africa” migration, the first humans in Australia are 50,000 to 55,000 years ago. ref The first humans in southern France are 55,000 to 50,000 years ago. ref And the oldest art in Southeast Asia and Australia are more naturalistic in the earliest art expression, seeming to be more in line with the less evolved core mythology that left out of Africa, then some evolved symbolic type as seen in European early contexts.

In the mythology videos offered (by John White), a map sequence on the spread of world mythology that does not have any original mythology from out of Africa getting to western Europe and the only mythology western Europe finally gets in the map sequence offered is a sconed branch of evolved mythology way after the out of Africa at a time close to the into the Americas time frame the Americas reserved mythology and taking the offered statements this would be after 25,000 years ago or so.

This needs rethinking; to me, it is not simply as Western Europe would have possibly gotten out of Africa, mythology is a similar time, matching the genetic evidence for people in Australia. But also, because there were more following migrations into early western Europe at least by 45,000 years ago, with the Aurignacian culture known for the first Venus figurines and that is associated with seemingly symbolic art as early as 40,000 years ago, and thus we can assume could show an evolution of mythology not seen in the oldest art in southeast Asia and Australia. Certainly, it shows mythological meaning related to the out of Africa had reached Western Europe by the time of the Aurignacian culture.

There were many back migrations to Africa, the first of which began 30,000 years ago from Siberia with mt-DNA U6 into North Africa. ref Around 15,000 years ago, Y-DNA E from Israel (Natufian related) likely came into North Africa. ref, ref Around 10,000 years ago Y-DNA J (J-P58 referred to as J1e)  (Initial entry in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, as later migrations accrued as well) from the Levant/Middle East, which brought agriculture and animal domestication, likely came into northern Egypt/North Africa. ref Around 9,000 years ago Y-DNA T (Pastorialists) from the Middle East came into Egypt/North Africa. ref Around 8,000 to 7,000 years ago, Y-DNA R1bv88 from the Middle East came into Egypt/North Africa. ref Around 6,000 to 5,000 years ago, ideas from Mesopotamia came into Egypt/North Africa. ref ETC.

Australia 2. Now to address Australia, it got an influx of things and even people later than the first peopling. There is an error in thinking Australis was closed off until European contact, thus has mythology that is uninfluenced by the outside, but for the out of Africa migration peopling. The oldest evidence of Taro plant getting to Australia and New Guinea are around 10,000 years ago, from Southeast Asia. ref The first paintings of the Rainbow Serpent appear in Arnhem Land rock art between 6000 and 8000 years ago, after the last Ice Age, when the seas rose. Which is interesting as the modern configuration: New Guinea separated from mainland Australia about 8,000 years ago, and Tasmania about 6,000 years ago. ref, ref

“Recent molecular studies on humans have likewise yielded a diversity of interpretations, ranging from a deep but undated split distinguishing Australians even from their immediate neighbors to the north in New Guinea to a very recent immigration event within the Holocene in the past 10,000 years. However, there was a minor gene flow into Australia, and this could have taken place before the land bridge between Australia and New Guinea was submerged ≈8,000 years ago, thus calling into question that certain significant developments in later Australian prehistory (the emergence of a backed-blade lithic industry, and the linguistic dichotomy) were externally motivated. Archaeological data indicate the intensification of density and complexity of different stone tools in Australia during the Holocene period and the emergence of backed-blade stone-tool technology.” ref

The Aboriginal Australian “Language” only goes back 10,000 years ago: “Australia’s indigenous languages have one source, a study says. However, the languages are all derived from a mother tongue, known as Proto-Australian, that was spoken about 10,000 years ago.” ref

“The geographically restricted appearance of mtDNA Q in northern Australia may suggest a secondary arrival of settlers from New Guinea well before the land bridge between Australia and New Guinea was submerged ≈8,000 years ago.” ref

“Language experts are adamant that Pama-Nyungan languages date back 4,000 years and coincide with the appearance of new stone technologies in the archaeological record. Seemingly coinciding with a second migration into Australia 4,000 years ago, by people speaking this language. Only a tiny gene flow, small population movement from north-east Australia across the continent, potentially at the time the Pama-Nyungan language and new stone tool technologies appeared. Small in number but had a significant, sweeping impact on the continent’s culture, and then genetic evidence for them disappears. In short, their influential language and culture survived – but they, as a distinctive group, did not.” ref

“Australia experienced a wave of migration from India about 4,000 years ago, a genetic study suggests. There is a pretty clear signal from looking at a large number of genetic markers from all across the genome that there was contact between India and Australia somewhere around 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. The genetic data could not establish the route the Indians would have taken to reach the continent, but it was evidence that Australia was not as cut off as had been assumed.” ref

“Moreover, the first Dingoes (Canis lupus dingo) also appear at about the same time (3,500–4,000 years ago) and were proposed to have been introduced by new human arrivals, from India, along with new stone tool types.” ref

Dogs genetically linked to Neolithic/Ancient China 13,000 to 10,000 years ago ref (originally coming from/relating to Siberia ref): “Currently, the earliest evidence for dog dispersal into the Greater Australian region and surrounds is found in Australia (Madura Cave 3,210–3,361 years ago), New Ireland (Kamgot, c. 3,000–3,300 years ago), and Timor-Leste (Matja Kuru 2, 2,886–3,068 years ago). Previously, the earliest published dog remains for the large continental island of New Guinea was from Edubu 1 (2,314–2,700 years ago) in Caution Bay, south coast of mainland PNG.” ref

2026 – “The earliest morphologically identifiable dogs are from Europe and date to at least 14,000 years ago, although early remains are also found in other regions.  The oldest dog data that we recovered are from a 14,200-year-old dog from the Kesslerloch site in Switzerland, and we find that it shares ancestry with later worldwide dogs—inconsistent with the hypothesis that European Upper Palaeolithic dogs derived wholly from a separate domestication process. The Kesslerloch dog already displays more affinity to Mesolithic, Neolithic, and present-day European dogs than to Asian dogs, demonstrating that dog genetic diversification had started well before 14,200 years ago. All dog genomes analyzed so far have some amount of eastern progenitor ancestry, whereas only some dogs seem to have western progenitor ancestry. The largest proportion of western progenitor ancestry observed so far is in Neolithic dogs in Southwest Asia, which trace approximately half of their ancestry to this source, with smaller proportions in Neolithic and later European dogs. The east–west cline in the proportions of eastern and western progenitor ancestry carried by different dogs is visible in their projection onto the wolf PCA. In this cline, we find that pre-Neolithic European dogs tend to fall on the eastern side—similarly to East Asian and Arctic dogs—rather than together with Southwest Asian and African dogs. Consistent with this, f4-statistics demonstrate that pre-Neolithic European dogs—like dogs generally—have stronger affinities to Late Pleistocene Siberian wolves than to the European wolves they were contemporary with.  We next used the qpAdm framework to more formally model how different dogs fit into the dual ancestry model. We used a 9,500-year-old dog from Zhokhov Island in the East Siberian Sea to represent a baseline of likely fully eastern progenitor ancestry. We asked whether a single-source eastern progenitor model can explain the ancestry of a given target, or whether a contribution from a second, western Eurasian wolf is needed (we use a present-day Syrian wolf as a proxy for this western progenitor). We find that the single-source  (Siberian)  Zhokhov model fits or nearly fits for all the pre-Neolithic European dogs analyzed here, including the 14,200-year-old Kesslerloch dog. This implies that the ancestry of these early dogs in Europe is consistent with deriving from the same eastern progenitor source as dogs in Siberia, East Asia, and Australasia, and that no additional contributions from western Eurasian wolf sources are required to explain the data.”  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10112-7 

“Domestic pigs from southern China and the Philippines were introduced across most islands of Wallacea and Oceania sometime after 3500 to 3000 years ago. The human-mediated translocation of pigs east of the Wallace Line most likely began with a species native to Sulawesi, in pre-Neolithic times >4000 years ago. S. scrofa (the ancestor of modern domestic pigs) populations were also likely introduced east of the Wallace Line between 4000 and 3000 years ago during the expansion of Austronesian speakers from mainland East Asia and Taiwan, through the Philippines and northern Wallacea, into Melanesia and Polynesia.” ref

“Archaeological evidence of pigs has been found in some of the earliest sites associated with the Lapita Cultural Complex in both Near and Remote Oceania. The Pacific Clade mtDNA control region haplotype is found at low frequencies in Vietnam, Sumatra and Java, more frequently in the Lesser Sundas, and in all pigs in New Guinea and the rest of the Pacific point to Southeast Asia as the likely genetic source population for the Pacific Clade pigs had spread as far east as Wallacea, before being transported by Austronesian peoples to Near and Remote Oceania. This suggests a single introduction of pigs to the Pacific around 3,000 years ago, with extant Pacific pigs being the direct descendants of those introduced during this Austronesian expansion.” ref

“The Lapita culture is the name given to a Neolithic Austronesian people and their distinct material culture, who settled Island Melanesia via a seaborne migration at around 1600 to 500 BCE. The Lapita intermarried with the Papuan populations to various degrees, and are the direct ancestors of the Austronesian peoples of Polynesia, eastern Micronesia, and Island Melanesia.” ref

“The Lapita complex is part of the eastern migration branch of the Austronesian expansion, which started from Taiwan between about 5,000 and 6,000 years ago. Some of the emigrants reached Melanesia and were distant descendants of much earlier migrations into the super-continent of Sahul. There are different theories about the route they took to get there.” ref

“Papua New Guinea has evidence that the some of the legendary seafarers who first settled Polynesia 3600 years ago were from the archipelago of Melanesia–fanned out across the remote Polynesian islands. Pottery shards found, along with human bones and other traces of ancient life, of northeastern Papua New Guinea, which is part of Melanesia are estimated to be about 4000 years old, is similar to more recent and distinctive Lapita pottery carried by the first settlers in Polynesia in the central and eastern Pacific.” ref

“The Neolithic Austronesian Lapita culture people settled Island Melanesia via a seaborne migration at around 1600 to 500 BCE, believed to have originated from the northern Philippines, either directly, via the Mariana Islands, or both. Intermarried with the Papuan populations to various degrees, and are the direct ancestors of the Austronesian peoples of Polynesia, eastern Micronesia, and Island Melanesia.” ref

“Around 3,000 years ago, marine shells started piling up and the earliest ceramics found in the midden fell to their final resting place. Dozens of broken pieces of pottery dating between 2,000 and 3,000 years old have been unearthed on a windswept island on the Great Barrier Reef – the oldest pottery ever discovered in Australia. Archaeological discoveries in Australia’s Torres Strait indicate ancient maritime connections with 2,600 years old Papua New Guinea earthenware and rock art depicting Indigenous trading ships, suggesting a complex network of trade and cultural exchange in the region.” ref, ref

South America 3. South America experienced several influx migrations, (Multiple Waves) not just one. There is an error thinking Australis was closed off until European contact thus has mythology that is uninfluenced from the outside but for the out of Africa migration peopling. “Ancient DNA suggests that people populated South America in at least three distinct waves, with the first arriving at least 11,000 years ago (Clovis group). A second wave of settlers replaced the Clovis group in South America about 9,000 years ago. And a third group related to ancient people from California’s Channel Islands spread over the Central Andes about 4,200–5,000 years ago. There is archaeological evidence that the population in the Central Andes area greatly expanded after around 5,000 years ago.” ref, ref

“Maize was domesticated by indigenous peoples in southern Mexico about 9,000 years ago from wild teosinte. Maize was domesticated only once, about 9,000 years ago, and then spread throughout the Americas. A primitive corn was being grown in southern Mexico, Central America, and northern South America 7,000 years ago and the valleys of the Colombian Andes between 7,000 and 6,000 years ago. The earliest maize plants grew a single, small ear per plant. The Olmec and Maya cultivated maize in numerous varieties throughout Mesoamerica. By 3000 years ago, maize was central to Olmec culture, including their calendar, language, and myths.” ref

What differences can be found Mesoamerican and Andean (South American) civilizations shared striking similarities, including intensive, irrigation-based agriculture (maize/potatoes), monumental architecture (mounds/pyramids/temples), highly stratified class structures, and sophisticated religions (similar high deities centered on creation, sun worship, serpents, and earth-fertility), complex calendars for scheduling rituals, large-scale trade, and localized maritime contact, despite developing mostly independently.

“Shared traits in Mesoamerican mythology are characterized by their common basis as a religion that—though in many Mesoamerican groups developed into complex polytheistic religious systems—retained some shamanistic elements. Depictions of world trees, both in their directional and central aspects, are found in the art and mythological traditions of cultures such as the Maya, Aztec, Izapan, Mixtec, Olmec, and others. The typical Mesoamerican cosmology sees the world as separated into a day world watched by the sun and a night world watched by the moon. More importantly, the three superposed levels of the world are united by a Ceiba tree (Yaxche in Mayan). The geographic vision is also tied to the cardinal points. Directional world trees are also associated with the four Yearbearers in Mesoamerican calendars, and the directional colors and deities. Certain geographical features are linked to different parts of this cosmovision. Thus, mountains and tall trees connect the middle and upper worlds; caves connect the middle and nether worlds.” ref, ref

“The tree plays an important part in the mythologies of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures. In addition, several Amazonian tribes of eastern Peru believe deities live in Ceiba tree species throughout the jungle. The Ceiba, or ya’axché (in the Mopan Mayan language), symbolized to the Maya civilization an axis mundi which connects the planes of the Underworld (Xibalba) and the sky with that of the terrestrial realm. This concept of a central world tree is often depicted as a Ceiba trunk. The unmistakable thick conical thorns in clusters on the trunk were reproduced by the southern lowland Maya of the Classical Period on cylindrical ceramic burial urns or incense holders. World trees are frequently depicted with birds in their branches, and their roots extending into earth or water (sometimes atop a “water-monster”, symbolic of the underworld). The central world tree has also been interpreted as a representation of the band of the Milky Way.” ref, ref

“In Andean and Amazonian, mythology, the “world tree” serves as an axis mundi connecting the celestial, earthly, and underworlds. Ceiba tree as sacred, linking these realms, as well as the Shihuahuaco tree as sacred.” ref, ref, ref, ref

“world tree, center of the world, a widespread motif in many myths and folktales among various preliterate peoples, especially in Asia, Australia, and North America, by which they understand the human and profane condition in relation to the divine and sacred realm.” ref

“The Mesoamerican isthmus is the standard route to explain pre-Columbian crop exchange and movement between Mesoamerica and the Andes. This route was used by humans as early as 6,850 years ago to disperse maize from Mesoamerica to South America. In addition, maize and other crops were also exchanged between both continents through the Caribbean. Another less-explored possible route of crop exchange and dispersal between Mesoamerica and South America is over the sea across the Pacific Ocean. Archaeological studies of shared metallurgy and mollusc shells suggest exchange between pre-Columbian communities along the Pacific coast. Such a Pacific route could have stimulated crop exchange between cultures from Mesoamerica and the Andes, resulting in more diverse food systems at both ends.” ref

“Cherimoya (custard apple family) dispersion from Mesoamerica to South America through sea-trade routes between Mexico and northern Peru and northern Ecuador: two Sea routes that connected Mexico with northern Peru and northern Ecuador returned the highest correlation coefficients compared with other sea routes and the control Land route. For maize and common bean, none of the sea routes, single or combined, showed higher correlation values compared with the control Land route. For maize, North and South American clusters were clearly separated. All Mexican and Guatemalan samples were collapsed in one clade that showed similarity with the South American samples from the Caribbean basin. In South America, relative local geographic clusters showed a north–south geographic global relation except the south Brazilian cells, which were more similar to the Venezuelan samples. For common bean, genotypes from Mexico and Guatemala showed high similarity and from this cluster emerged the clusters of Costa Rica. In South America, the northern Ecuadorian, Colombian and northern Peru clusters were collapsed together. South Peruvian cells branched out to Bolivia and Argentina.” ref

“Researchers propose that cherimoya arrived to Peru from Mexico around or before 4,700 years ago. While most archaeological research refers to pre-Columbian trade routes between Ecuador and western Mexico, our results pointed to northern Peru as the most probably region of arrival of cherimoya to South America. This region has an ancient cultural history and could have been connected by a similar trade network across the Pacific as the adjacent areas in Ecuador. Archaeobotanical data suggested that cherimoya became part of human diets in Peru around this time, observations were in line with the around 4,000 years ago estimates of cherimoya arrival in Peru based on DNA mutations.” ref

“During the Archaic period, Mesoamerican peoples slowly changed from being nomadic hunter-gatherers to semi-sedentary or sedentary foragers and farmers. Based on research at sites on Mexico’s gulf coast, central highlands, and coasts, it seems that people began settling in constructed, permanent villages between 3000 and 1800 BCE or 5,000 to 3,800 years ago. These early villages are associated with the construction of perishable structures, use of agriculture, and participation in trade, especially obsidian trade. The earliest known coastal shell mound is Cerro de las Conchas, which dates between 5500 and 3500 BCE or 7,500 to 5,500 years ago. More permanent sites are identified in the archaeological record with greater frequency dating to 3000 BCE (5,000 years ago) and later. The site of Zohapilco on Lake Chalco in the Basin of Mexico has evidence of year-round settlement before a volcanic eruption around 3000 BCE (5,000 years ago). The site of Colha and nearby swamps, such as Cobweb Swamp and Pulltrouser Swamp, show evidence of permanent settlement by 3000 BCE (5,000 years ago).” ref

“Around 5,000 years ago (circa 3000 BCE), coastal Peru featured monumental shell mounds and early ceremonial architecture built by complex, maritime-oriented societies, notably at sites like the Norte Chico region, represent some of the oldest urban centers in the Americas. One likely answer offers a theory of the origins of the mound builder civilization 5,000 years ago: The mound builders were fishermen who had to move inland. 5,000 years ago, fisherman thrived along the coastline of Peru, about 10 miles from the Norte Chico region. These fishermen moved inland and abandoned their hunter-gatherer lifestyle utilizing a new food source. They turned to agriculture, cultivating crops. They traded these crops with people who stayed on the coast and kept fishing — thus the fish bones and shells scattered throughout the region. The Norte Chico civilization, also known as the Caral-Supe civilization, is one of the oldest known complex societies in the Americas. Flourished between approximately 3000 and 1800 BCE or 5,000 to 3,800 years ago along the arid coast of Peru. Norte Chico/Caral Supe includes complex ceremonial landscapes, 5,000-year-old ceremonial pyramids one of which contained a 5,000-year-old corncob, numerous small scale ceremonial structures among the monumental platform mounds, and sunken circular plazas. One of the largest ceremonial centers is the Caral site and dates  between 2630-1900 BCE or 4,600 to 3,900 years ago.” ref, ref, ref, ref, ref

“Slash-and-burn agriculture starting around 3500 BCE (5,500 years ago)in the Maya Lowlands. Stone tool technologies, materials, and uses adapted and diversified during the Archaic period known as Colha chert. Colha chert became a common and important material for stone tools beginning around 3000 BCE (5,000 years ago) and continuing into the Preclassic and Classic periods. Stone tools have been used to track possible trade networks throughout Mesoamerica. Little is known about trade in the Archaic period, but some evidence suggests the existence of local trade networks and some possible long-distance trade. It is generally unclear when the Archaic period ends and the Preclassic begins. There is no clear distinction between the food ways and tools of the Late Archaic and Early Preclassic. Based on the appearance of Maya ceramics at important Preclassic sites, the transition occurred roughly between 1200 and 800 BCE and differed by region. Another issue is whether the Archaic peoples in the Maya region were the same people as in the Preclassic. ” ref

“There is little consensus on the nature, identity, or origins of the earliest Maya, which is complicated by disagreement about what constitutes Maya culture. Based on similarities in pottery styles, such as double-line breaks, similar slips, temper inclusions, and vessel forms, it was previously thought that the Maya lowlands were occupied by Mixe-Zoque speaking people migrating from the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Terrence Kaufman suggested that the lowlands were populated by proto-Mayan speaking people from the highlands because Proto-Mayan languages split around 2200 BCE in the highlands and splinter groups appear in the lowlands around 1400 BCE. Others suggest, based on continuity in food ways and stone tool technologies, that Archaic populations in the lowlands developed or learned ceramic technologies and became the earliest Maya. Maya origin narratives from the Classic period describe fixing the beginning date of the Long Count calendar to a date in the Archaic period (3114 BCE or 5,114 years ago) similar to the date of the beginnings of horticulture and domestication in the lowlands, indicating that the Maya themselves may have traced their origins to the Archaic period.” ref

130:00 to 132:00 – “We are honest enough to say you never get 100%, even though in my videos I may sound really confident, because you got to sell the video, and otherwise people would not want to watch my videos. Sorry to everyone, if you did not realize that. I do try to say, it (confidence) is probabilistic, and yes, there is bias in the data, there is interpretation, words are subject, there will always be this problem with comparative mythology. Even if you are happy with all the archaeology data and the like, the narratives are subjective, and that is why you may have multiple interpretations of the same text.” – John White (Does Comparative Mythology Matter? A Discussion with Portable Orange)

8:03 to 8:15 “The phylogenetic method of mythology research (which John White favors using) isn’t without potential issues, and one of the key things (which John admits in relation to flood myth research done by others) we need to be aware of when looking at how far back a myth goes is whether it was actually spread in more recent history.” – John White (The Oldest Flood Myth and its Origin) 

Teach Real History: all our lives depend on it.

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“The Aurignacian is an archaeological industry of the Upper Paleolithic associated with Early European modern humans (EEMH) lasting from 43,000 to 26,000 years ago in most areas and lasting until about 17,000 years ago in Ukraine in the form of the Epi-Aurignacian. The Aurignacians are part of the wave of anatomically modern humans thought to have spread from Africa through the Near East into Paleolithic Europe, and became known as European early modern humans. Anatomically modern humans include fossils of the Ahmarian, Bohunician, Aurignacian, Gravettian, Solutrean, and Magdalenian cultures, extending throughout the Last Glacial Maximum, covering the period of roughly 48,000 to 15,000 years ago. The genetics of the Aurignacians male Y-DNA haplogroups involving C1a, C1b, and K2a; as well as female mt-DNA haplogroups involving M, N, R, and U.” ref

“The Gravettian is an archaeological industry of the European Upper Paleolithic that succeeded the Aurignacian circa 33,000 years ago. It is archaeologically the last European culture many consider unified, and had mostly disappeared by c. 22,000 years ago, close to the Last Glacial Maximum, although some elements lasted until c. 17,000 years ago. In modern-day Portugal, Spain and France, it was succeeded by the Solutrean and by the Epigravettian in Italy, the Balkans, Ukraine and Russia. The genetics of the Gravettians male Y-DNA haplogroups involving BT, CT, F, IJK, I, and C1a2; as well as female mt-DNA haplogroups involving M and U. Majority of the sample of U belonged to the U5 and U2.” ref

Shamanism Origins 34,000 years ago, and the Origin of Dogs as Tutelary Spirits?

Haplogroup R possible time of origin about 27,000 years in Central Asia, South Asia, or Siberia:

• Mal’ta–Buret’ culture (24,000-15,000 years ago)
• Afontova Gora culture (21,000-12,000 years ago)
• Trialetian culture (16,000–8000 years ago) (“The Caucasian–Anatolian area of Trialetian culture was adjacent to the Iraqi–Iranian Zarzian culture to the east and south, as well as the Levantine Natufian to the southwest.” ref )
• Samara culture (7,000-6,500 years ago)
• Khvalynsk culture (7,000-6,500 years ago)
• Afanasievo culture (5,300-4,500 years ago)
• Yamna/Yamnaya Culture (5,300-4,500 years ago)
• Andronovo culture (4,000–2,900 years ago) ref

20:40 to 21:00 “Now, knowing human migration patterns over time allows us to reflect on how we see myth dispersal, as it should match, and if it does, it would give us confidence that our research was good. I mean, we shouldn’t predict a myth in the opposite direction of human migrations tens of thousands of years ago.” – John White (Finding our Oldest Myths: The Academia behind my Work)

(And this should include all migrations from the oldest to the youngest, as myths could have moved at different times, thus confusing or contradicting speculation if only looking at the oldest migrations. It seems there could be a rethinking or a check of whether the present distributions could have arrived through later migrations rather than older ones. Likewise, one should not apply myth migrations to human migrations without considering artifacts or art in archaeological contexts that also point to where myths may have evolved or originated. I have watched several of John White’s videos on mythology origin or dispersal speculations, as well as read several studies on mythology origin or dispersal speculations, and both heavily position myths leaving Africa and then only or mainly going to Southeast Asia, where they evolve or change, mainly dispersing from there or East Asia/Asia in general to other areas. I understand that, but I would offer some rethinking of other migrations into Europe where the earliest symbolic art is found. The earliest modern human art is in two main areas: Southeast Asia, with limited art and almost exclusively naturalistic, non-symbolic or ritualistic at all, the only theme is non-mythic, seemingly hunting. Whereas in the earliest European modern human art is not limited to naturalistic expression alone and includes symbolic, ritualistic, hunting magic, and mythological beliefs. Yet Europe is rarely addressed as an origin or evolution source for mythology. Rather than suggesting a mythology hub or origin in Paleolithic times, it seems most who consider mythology dispersals imply that Europe is a mythology backwater and that it served as a major source for the evolution of Western mythology, deeply rooted in Proto-Indo-European traditions and much later times. This would seem to disregard all the amazing art and artifacts in the archaeology record that point to the opposite, that Europe was in some way or another a major early player of either the origin of some ideas or their evolution.) 

ref, ref

Milky Way: “souls of the Dead path” myths 100/70,000 years old? ref, ref

A Seeming African Origin of the Milky Way Mythology and Its Relatedness to Other Mythology

To me, Primordial Waters, seemingly related to a mythologizing of the night sky, likely originated 70,000 or so years ago in Africa and dispersed to all parts outside Africa from then, taking two different routes: east-south to Southeast Asia, and west-north to Europe more directly, with west migration involving the Aurignacian culture, as well as to Siberia north, then to west to Europe migration involving the Gravettian culture. However, looking just at the archaeology, it would seem possible that the Milky Way (celestial river), which is also related to this mythology of the night sky as Primordial Waters, may not have extended east-south to Southeast Asia in its early dispersals. There are artifacts with ladder-notch marks, starting in Africa and limiting their dispersal to both the west and north, then westward migrations into Europe. And it may have dispersed from those points all over.

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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This is my thoughts/speculations on the origins of Totemism

Totemism as seen in Europe: 50,000 years ago, mainly the Aurignacian culture

• Pre-Aurignacian “Châtelperronian” (Western Europe, mainly Spain and France, possible transitional/cultural diffusion between Neanderthals and humans around 50,000-40,000 years ago)
• Archaic–Aurignacian/Proto-Aurignacian (Europe around 46,000-35,000) 
• Aurignacian “classical/early to late” (Europe and other areas around 38,000 – 26,000 years ago)

“In the realm of culture, the archeological evidence also supports a Neandertal contribution to Europe’s earliest modern human societies, which feature personal ornaments completely unknown before immigration and are characteristic of such Neandertal-associated archeological entities as the Chatelperronian and the Uluzzian.” – (PDF) Neandertals and Moderns Mixed, and It Matters: Link

Totemism as seen in Europe: 50,000 years ago, mainly the Aurignacian culture

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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40,000 years old Aurignacian Lion Figurine Early Totemism?

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Why are these 32 symbols found in caves all over Europe

32 Sacred Cave Art Pre-Writing Shapes Dated to 35,000 to 13,000 Years Ago

• 1. Aviform: less than 10% of sites, 30,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 2. Cruciform: 13% of sites, all time periods.
• 3. Half Circle: 18% of sites, all time periods.
• 4. Penniform: 25% of sites, starting 25,000 years ago.
• 5. Serpentiform: 7% of sites, starting 30,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 6. Circle: 20% of sites, all time periods.
• 7. Cupule: 15% of sites, all time periods.
• 8. Line: 70% of sites, all time periods.
• 9. Dot: 42% of sites, all time periods.
• 10. Negative Hand: 15% of sites, 30,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 11. Positive Hand: 7% of sites, 30,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 12. Claviform: 15% of sites, all time periods.
• 13. Spiral: 2 sites, 25,000 to 15,000 years ago.
• 14. Open-Angle: 42% of sites, all time periods.
• 15. Quadrangle: 20% of sites, all time periods.
• 16. Tectiform: 10% of sites, 25,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 17. Cordiform: 3 sites, 30,000 to 15,000 years ago.
• 18. Finger Fluting: 15% of sites, all time periods.
• 19. Oval: 30% of sites, all time periods.
• 20. Reniform: rare, 35,000 to 13,000 years ago.
• 21. Triangle: 20% of sites, all time periods.
• 22. Crosshatch: 17% of sites, all time periods.
• 23. Flabelliform: 18% of sites, all time periods.
• 24. Pectiform: 5% of sites, starting 25,000 years ago.
• 25. Scalariform: 3 sites, starting 25,000 years ago.
• 26. Zig-Zag: 7 sites, 20,000 to 13,000 years ago.

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“Even though not all signs are shown, palaeoanthropologist Von Petzinger, found through investigation of Europe’s cave art that there are at least 32 shapes. These are possibly a source of writings’ origin seen many times and places, thus the world’s oldest sacred code. A paleoanthropologist and rock art researcher explains that even though to many written language is the hallmark of human civilization, this construct in behavior didn’t just suddenly appear one day. Thousands of years before the first fully developed writing systems, our ancestors scrawled geometric signs across the walls of the caves they sheltered in. She has studied and codified these ancient markings in caves across Europe, suggesting that graphic communication, and the ability to preserve and transmit messages beyond a single moment in time, may be much older than we think.” ref, ref, ref, ref 

 Jay Anderson @TheProjectUnity – “It’s not just ‘Noah’s flood in the Bible. ‘ A global flood story is represented across over 200 cultures worldwide.”

My response: “Noah’s flood in the Bible” is a type of flood mythology called a “cosmogonic flood myth,” and not all flood myths are directly cosmogonically related. Some may be influenced by them yet still not them, and others hold different relations altogether.

“Africa is a continent rich with language diversity. There are over 3,000 languages spoken in Africa, many of which have roots in the major language families:

• Afro-Asianic includes Arabic ancestrally native to East and North Africa, and the Arabian Peninsula
• Nilo-Saharan
• Nilo-Congo (A) comprised of Niger-Congo’s non-Bantu branches
• Niger-Congo (B) mainly Bantu, Niger-Congo’s largest branch
• Khoi-San
• Austronesian is intrusive from Southeast Asia” ref

“Most languages natively spoken in Africa belong to one of the two large language families that dominate the continent: Afroasiatic, or Niger–Congo. Another hundred belong to smaller families such as Ubangian, Nilotic, Saharan, and the various families previously grouped under the umbrella term Khoisan.” ref

A rough overview of language families spoken in Africa:

“Proto-Afroasiatic language: 12,000 to 18,000 years ago or 16,000 and 10,000 BCE, the putative homeland of Proto-Afroasiatic speakers, the majority of scholars agree that it was located within West Asia or Northeast Africa. The absolute latest date for when Proto-Afroasiatic could have been extant is c. 4000 BCE, after which Egyptian and the Semitic languages are firmly attested.” ref

Afroasiatic

• “Afroasiatic languages are spread throughout Western Asia, North Africa, the Horn of Africa and parts of the Sahel.” ref

“Afroasiatic languages are spoken throughout North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia and parts of the Sahel. There are approximately 375 Afroasiatic languages spoken by over 400 million people. The main subfamilies of Afroasiatic are Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Omotic, Egyptian and Semitic.” ref

“Nichols (1992) argues for the use of areal linguistics in contexts involving time depths greater than 8,000 years and develops areal linguistics into the further concepts of spread and residual zones. Nichols (1992) suggests 8,000 years as the limit of the comparative method; Nichols (1997) extends this to 10,000 years; Goddard and Campbell explain that the methods used at time depths of 6,000 years may not work far beyond that. The earliest archaeological evidence indicates that people have inhabited the Saharan area for around 20,000 years, more so during the green Saharan (African Humid Period between 14,500 and 5,000 years ago and isolated genetic population from at least 15,000 to 7,500 years ago.) Earliest herders with their livestock entered Africa probably along the Sinai and the Red Sea, after which they rapidly spread into northeastern Africa and reached the Central Sahara around 8,300 years ago. 7,000-year-old Pastoral females buried Central Sahara. By 6,400 years ago, further gene flow occurred with the appearance of ancestry associated with Levant groups visible in the Eastern Sahara but it is not until the time of the emergence of the Egyptians 15,000 years later, around 5,000 years ago that evidence, including Nilo-Saharan-speaking Nubians, becomes more substantial.” ref, ref, ref

Nilo-Saharan (possibly a family)

• “Saharan, Nilotic and Central Sudanic languages (grouped under the hypothetical Nilo-Saharan macro-family), are present in East Africa and Sahel.” ref

“Nilo-Saharan languages are a proposed grouping of some one hundred diverse languages. This hypothetical family would reach an expanse that stretches from the Nile Valley to northern Tanzania and into Nigeria and DR Congo, with the Songhay languages along the middle reaches of the Niger River as a geographic outlier. Some of the better known Nilo-Saharan languages are Kanuri, Fur, Songhay, Nobiin and the widespread Nilotic family, which includes the Luo, Dinka and Maasai. Most Nilo-Saharan languages are tonal, as are Niger-Congo languages.” ref

“Proto-Niger–Congo originated about 11,000–10,000 years ago or 9,000–8,000 BCE in the western part of the “Green Sahara” of Africa (roughly the Sahel and southern Sahara), and that its dispersal can be correlated with the spread of the bow and arrow by migrating hunter-gatherers.” ref

Niger–Congo

“Proto-Bantu dates to around 4500–4000 BCE and was originally been spoken in West/Central Africa in the area of what is now Cameroon. About 6,000 years ago, it split off from Proto-Southern Bantoid when the Bantu expansion began to the south and east.” ref

Bantu

• Niger–Congo, which include the large Atlantic-Congo and Bantu branches in West, Central, Southeast and Southern Africa.

“The Niger–Congo languages constitute the largest language family spoken in West Africa and perhaps the world in terms of the number of languages. One of its salient features is an elaborate noun class system with grammatical concord. A large majority of languages of this family are tonal such as Yoruba and Igbo, Akan and Ewe language. A major branch of Niger–Congo languages is the Bantu phylum. Niger-Congo “A” represents the non-Bantu branches (mostly West African, Atlantic-Congo), while “B” represents the extensive Bantu branch. Niger–Congo is generally accepted by linguists, though a few question the inclusion of Mande and Dogon.” ref 

“The Proto-Khoe-Kwadi homeland was likely in the middle Zambezi Valley, 2,000–3000 years ago. The early Kwadi people migrated westwards into Angola while the early Khoe moved southwards.” ref

“Reconstruction of 127 lexical roots in form and meaning provides further evidence for a Khoe-Kwadi language family and shows that the lexical and phonological proximity between Proto-Khoe-Kwadi and Proto-Khoe is closer than would be expected from the significant differences that Khoe and Kwadi display in the domains of morphology and syntax.” ref

Khoisan (not a family)

• Khoe–Kwadi languages are spoken mostly in Namibia and Botswana.

“Khoisan is a term of convenience covering some 30 languages spoken by around 300,000–400,000 people. There are five Khoisan families that have not been shown to be related to each other: Khoe, Tuu and Kxʼa, which are found mainly in Namibia and Botswana, as well as Sandawe and Hadza of Tanzania, which are language isolates. A striking feature of Khoisan languages, and the reason they are often grouped together, is their use of click consonants. Some neighbouring Bantu languages (notably Xhosa and Zulu) have clicks as well, but these were adopted from Khoisan languages. The Khoisan languages are also tonal.” ref

“A purported elephant bird kill site, with bones showing human cut marks were dated to 8,500 BCE, but as yet there is no indication as to the identity of the hunters. Archaeological finds such as cut marks on bones found in the northwest and stone tools in the northeast indicate that Madagascar was visited by foragers around 2000 BCE. Factual information about the peopling of Madagascar remains incomplete, but much recent multidisciplinary research and work in archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and history confirms that the Malagasy people were originally and overwhelmingly Austronesian peoples native to the Sunda Islands (Indonesian Archipelago). They probably arrived on the west coast of Madagascar with outrigger canoes (waka) at the beginning of our era or as much as 300 years sooner according to archaeologists, and perhaps even earlier under certain geneticists’ assumptions. On the basis of plant cultigens, Blench proposed the migrations occurred “at the earliest century BCE”. Archaeological work of Ardika and Bellwood suggests migration between 500 and 200 BCE. Malagasy cultural traditions shared with Taiwanese indigenous peoples, as well as those of the Pacific Islands, Indonesia, New Zealand, and the Philippines, including ancient customs, such as burying the dead within a canoe in the sea or in a lake, the cultivation of traditional Austronesian crops such as taro or saonjo, banana, coconut, and sugarcane, traditional architecture with a square house plan, music and musical instruments such as the antsiva conch, the hazolahy drum, the atranatrana xylophone, sodina flute, or the valiha tube zither, and dance, including the “bird dance” found both in central and southern regions. After the arrival of the newcomers (see below), as growing population density necessitated higher crop yields, irrigated rice paddies emerged in Betsileo country by 1600 and were complemented with terraced paddies throughout the central highlands a century later. Zebu were introduced around 1000 by Bantu-speaking migrants from the African Great Lakes region (see below), who maintained large herds.” ref

“Proto-Malagasy language dates to around 500 to 700 CE when the Malagasy people, settled the island of Madagascar, who share linguistic and cultural ties with the Malaysian and Polynesian peoples. Culturally, the Malagasy people synthesized African and Indonesian influences, evident in their architectural styles, navigation practices, and spiritual beliefs, particularly in ancestor worship.” ref

Austronesian

• Austronesian languages are spoken in Madagascar and parts of the Comoros.

“Malagasy belongs to the Austronesian languages and is the westernmost branch of the family. It is the national and co-official language of Madagascar, and a Malagasy dialect called Bushi is also spoken in Mayotte. The ancestors of the Malagasy people migrated to Madagascar around 1,500 years ago from Southeast Asia, more specifically the island of Borneo. The origins of how they arrived to Madagascar remains a mystery, however the Austronesians are known for their seafaring culture. Despite the geographical isolation, Malagasy still has strong resemblance to Barito languages especially the Ma’anyan language of southern Borneo.” ref

To me, the fact that in mythology the primordial waters/cosmic ocean are depicted as dark and void could reflect animistic thinking about the night sky. As if stars, planets, and other things were floating above and were in a water substance that was the original substance of water from before creation, the primordial waters themselves were the dark night sky, and its vastness held everything afloat. In most, almost universal an archetype seen around the World, expressed similarly a primordial water (night sky), as the substance before creation, and from which all creation arises out of, a powerful but chaotic force.

I consider myself a teacher, more than a writer. An anarchist educator, desiring to teach plain truth. I am self-taught, hoping to inspire others to education and truth. I use researched quotes to educate and inform, more than my writing, but also offer my reasoned speculations. The only AI Overview I use is Google to investigate for any wondering.

I am not an academic. I am a revolutionary who teaches in public, on social media, in blog posts, in videos, and in the streets. I am not a leader by some title given, but from my commanding leadership style of simply starting to teach everywhere to everyone, all manner of positive education.

People don’t commonly teach religious history, even that of their own claimed religion. No, rather they teach a limited “pro their religion” history of their religion from a religious perspective favorable to the religion of choice. I am an atheist, and I have no god or religion to protect or be biased about or for; they are all mythology stories, creative human inventions. Religion is a cultural product and moved in cultural migrations.  

“Nun (“The Inert One”) or Nu (“Watery One”) (Ancient Egyptian: nnw Nānaw; Coptic: Ⲛⲟⲩⲛ Noun), in ancient Egyptian religion, is the personification of the primordial watery abyss which existed at the time of creation and from which the creator sun god Ra arose. Nun is one of the eight deities of the Ogdoad representing ancient Egyptian primordial Chaos from which the primordial mound arose. Nun can be seen as the first of all the gods and the creator of reality and personification of the cosmos. Nun was represented as an aspect of Heh which personifies the endless waters of chaos. Based on the papyrus of Ani and New Kingdom tomb paintings.” ref

“Hẹh (hẹh, also Huh, Hah, Hauh, Huah, and Hehu) was the personification of infinity or eternity in the Ogdoad in ancient Egyptian religion. His name originally meant “flood”, referring to the watery chaos Nu that the Egyptians believed existed before the creation of the world.” ref

“The ancient Egyptians envisaged the oceanic abyss of the Nun as surrounding a bubble in which the sphere of life is encapsulated, representing the deepest mystery of their cosmogony. In ancient Egyptian creation accounts, the original mound of land comes forth from the waters of the Nun. The Nun is the source of all that appears in a differentiated world, from which emerge all aspects of divine and earthly existence. In the Ennead cosmogony, Nun is perceived as transcendent at the point of creation alongside Atum the creator god. Beginning with the Middle Kingdom, Nun is described as “the father of the gods” and he is depicted on temple walls throughout the rest of ancient Egyptian religious history. Nun’s consort (or his female aspect) was the goddess Nunut or Naunet (Ancient Egyptian: nnwt).” ref

“In the beginning the universe only consisted of a great chaotic cosmic ocean, and the ocean itself was referred to as Nun. In some versions of this myth, at the beginning of time Mehet-Weret (meaning “Great Flood”), her own titles included ‘mound’ or ‘island’ and she was portrayed as a cow with a sun disk between her horns, gives birth to the sun, said to have risen from the waters of creation and to have given birth to the sun god Ra in some myths. Mehet-Weret also was believed to cause the annual Nile River flood that fertilized the crops with water as well as ‘probably’ the Milky Way in the night sky, to correspond with her identification as the celestial waters travelled by the solar barque.” ref, ref

“The ancient Egyptians envisaged the universe was enrapt by a vast mass of primordial waters, and the Benben, a pyramid mound, emerged amid this primal chaos. There was a lotus flower with Benben, and from this when it blossomed emerged Ra. There were many versions of the sun’s emergence, and it was said to have emerged directly from the mound or from a lotus flower that grew from the mound, in the form of a heron, falcon, scarab beetle, or human child. In Heliopolis, the creation was attributed to Atum, a deity closely associated with Ra, who was said to have existed in the waters of Nu as an inert potential being.” ref

Kiwa is one of several male divine guardians of the ocean in the traditions of some Māori iwi tribes of the East Coast of the North Island of New Zealand. A poetic name for the Pacific Ocean is Te moana nui a Kiwa (The great ocean of Kiwa). Kiwa’s first wife, in some of these traditions, was Parawhenuamea, ancestor of streams that flow from the land to the sea and of fresh water generally. Kiwa’s second wife was Hinemoana (Ocean woman), a personification of the sea. Kiwa and Hinemoana had a number of children.” ref

“The names and numbers of their children vary in different accounts. One version names ten children, and for most of these, gives details about the creatures they gave rise to:

1. Pipihura, ancestor of the cockle.
2. Te Uru-kahikahika, source of eels, lampreys, and frostfish.
3. Wharerimu, ancestor of seaweed.
4. Hine-tapiritia, ancestor of certain molluscs and oysters.
5. Te Raengawha, origin of sea urchins, as well as various fishes.
6. Te Kiri-pakapaka, origin of the snapper and the gurnard.
7. Whatu-maomao, whose offspring include the grouper, the kingfish, and the kahawai.
8. Te Kohurangi
9. Kapuwai
10. Kaiwahawera, ancestor of the octopus.” ref

“Others say that Kiwa is the brother of Hinemoana, or her guardian. Some Māori tribes have stories in which Hinemoana is married to Rangi, the god of the sky. This causes jealousy on the part of Papa, the earth mother, another of Rangi’s wives. The enmity between Hinemoana and Papa is shown in the way the sea is constantly attacking and eroding the land. In other areas of New Zealand, traditions about the guardians of the sea and the origin of its creatures were very different. For instance in the Mataatua canoe area, (the eastern Bay of Plenty) it appears that Hinemoana was unknown; their traditions concern a female deity named Wainui (Great Water) instead. The shellfish family Kiwaidae are named after ‘Kiwa, the goddess of shellfish in Polynesian Mythology’. This description of Kiwa is inaccurate, given that Māori sources all agree that Kiwa is a male guardian of the sea.” ref

I am specifically addressing New Zealand’s Maori mythology, as John, in his videos, has used it as an example of creation starting in a void, or of pre-creation not starting in primordial waters. 

“Tangaroa is the great atua (gods and spirits of the Polynesian people, such as the Māori or the Hawaiians) of the sea, lakes, rivers, and creatures that live within them, especially fish, in Māori mythology. As Tangaroa-whakamau-tai, he exercises control over the tides. He is sometimes depicted as a whale. Tangaroa is son of Ranginui and Papatūānuku, Sky and Earth. After joining his brothers Rongo, Tū, Haumia, and Tāne in the forcible separation of their parents, he is attacked by his brother Tāwhirimātea, the atua of storms, and forced to hide in the sea. The contention between Tangaroa and Tāne Mahuta, the father of birds, trees, and humans, is an indication that the Māori thought of the ocean and the land as opposed realms.” ref

“In Māori culture, the sea is often considered to be the source and foundation of all life. Islands are fish drawn up from the water, and people evolved from amphibious beginnings. But Tangaroa, god of the sea, can also be destructive. Traditions tell of vengeance wrought by the sea upon those who fall out of favor. Māori and their Polynesian forebears have been island peoples for many generations, so it is not surprising that water, particularly the sea, figures prominently in their worldview. In some traditions, the oceans’ depths are considered to be the origin and source of all life. The islands are believed to be fish, pulled up from beneath the sea, and humans are thought to have evolved from aquatic beginnings. In one version of the Māori creation story, Tangaroa is the son of Papatūānuku, the earth mother, and Ranginui, the sky father. In other versions, however, Tangaroa is the husband of Papatūānuku and a competitor of Ranginui.” ref

“The sky (Rangi) cohabited with the earth (Papa), who was the wife of the sea (Tangaroa). She was seduced by the sky. They had a child whom they called Tānenui-a-rangi, ‘Tāne, great of the heavens.’ The family thereupon decided that the sun should be allowed to shine through the armpit of the sky. ‘Tāne-great of the heavens’ said, ‘The sun shines above.’ He then said, ‘Let us raise our father above and leave the female, Papa, as our parent.’ They joined in and said, ‘Raise him up, separate the two. Let the female be set apart, let the male be set apart so that we may prosper in the world.’ The sky was then raised above. Hence, the sky stands above, and the earth lies below. It is likely that this version of the creation story – where water lies between the earth and sky – reflects an islander’s view of the world, where much of the earth appears to be under the sea. Following the separation of the adulterous lovers by their child, the earth returns to her place beneath the water, and what is left above is the whenua – a word meaning both land and placenta, which comes from the womb of the earth and floats on the sea. The Māori term for island is moutere – ‘floating land’.” ref

Before we move on, I would like to address my thoughts on the Māori Ranginui (Sky Father) and Papatūānuku (Earth Mother), or rather, the myths of (Sky Father) and Earth Mothers in general found throughout the world, and I think started in the Middle East as their origins around 11,000 years ago or older. Though totem couple artifacts are seen in Siberia’s Lake Baikal area with the Ancient North Eurasians Mal’ta–Buret’ culture (24,000 years ago) and seem to trace back to at least Russia, above the area between north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains at the Kostenki site 25,000 years ago, a time when Kostenki is related to the eastern Gravettian culture, because the Kostenki site started with Aurignacian culture. I think the couple theme, though it seems to have evidence dating back to at least 25,000 years ago in portable totem pole-like figurines, was not considered deities until they evolved in the Middle East, due to different lifestyles creating a motivation for different thinking, a transition from hunting and gathering to herding and farming.

I understand that facts, or our understanding of them, can and often do or may change to some extent. I am open to updating my thoughts based on what the facts express. If the facts update offering a different understanding, I follow the facts and change my thinking as needed.

Understanding Religion Evolution per Damien’s speculations from the evidence:

Pre-Animism (at least 300,000 years ago) possibly in Africa, the Middle East, and Eurasia

Animism (at least 100,000 years ago) possibly in Southern Africa or maybe in Central Africa

Totemism (at least 50,000/45,000 years ago) possibly around Germany, France, or somewhere in Western Europe

Shamanism (at least 30,000/35,000 years ago) possibly in West Siberia or East Russia

Paganism (at least 12,000/13,000 years ago), Turkey / and maybe also related to some parts of the Levant: “Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria.”

Progressed organized religion (at least 5,000 years ago) : (Egypt, the First Dynasty 5,150 years ago) and the Earliest attested ruler of Mesopotamia (Iraq) 4,750 years ago, “King of the first Dynasty of Kish” when Kish had hegemony over Sumer.

Animism (simplified for me as a belief in a perceived spirit world) dates back at least 100,000 years, “the primal stage of early religion.” To me, Animistic Somethingism: You just feel/think there has to be something supernatural/spirit-world, or feel/think things are supernatural/spirit-filled.

Totemism (simplified to me, as a belief that these perceived spirits could be managed or related to by created physical expressions) dates back at least 50,000 years ago and was a “progressed stage of early religion.” A totem is a representational spirit being, a sacred object, or a symbol of a group of people, a clan, or a tribe.

Shamanism (simplified to me as a belief that some special person can commune with these perceived spirits on behalf of others by way of rituals) dates back at least 30,000 years. Shamanism is an otherworld connection belief thought to heal the sick, communicate with spirits/deities, and escort souls of the dead.

“Hunting Cult” (Cosmic Hunt) becomes “Herding Cult” Paganism in the Middle East 12,000 to 11,000 years ago

High Gods and a Divine Couple (universal mommy and daddy)?

I think high gods started with a divine couple, a sky god (sky father) “Day sky, often the Sun” and a sky goddess (sky mother) “Night sky, often the Noon” around 11,000 years ago or older, associated with pre-pastoralism animal management, early herding, and proto-pastoralism, of big-horned goats, big-horned sheep, both domesticated around 11,000 years ago, and cattle domesticated around 10,000 years ago or a little older, especially so with cattle, the last three. Then, as farming and agriculture grew and the domestication of grains emerged a little after 10,000 to 9,000 years ago, and along came a new Earth goddess (Earth Mother), who then commonly took the place of the older sky goddess (sky mother) as the wife or consort to the sky god (sky father). This younger divine couple, a sky god (sky father) and Earth goddess (Earth Mother), becomes the norm the world over. Spread largely with the spread of farming and agriculture to me.

“High God, in anthropology and the history of religion, a type of supreme deity found among many nonliterate peoples of North and South America, Africa, northern Asia, and Australia. The adjective high is primarily a locative term: a High God is conceived as being utterly transcendent, removed from the world that he created. A High God is high in the sense that he lives in or is identified with the sky—hence, the alternative name. Among North American Indians and Central and South Africans, thunder is thought to be the voice of the High God. In Siberia, the sun and moon are considered the High God’s eyes. He is connected with food and heaven among American Indians. Some scholars consider the conception of the High God to be very old, preceding the creation of particular pantheons; some see the High God as secondary, both in importance and in chronology. Though the pattern varies from person to person, the High God is usually conceived as masculine or sexless. He is thought to be the sole creator of heaven and earth. Although he is omnipotent and omniscient, he is thought to have withdrawn from his creation and therefore to be inaccessible to prayer or sacrifice. Generally, no graphic images of him exist, nor does he receive cult worship or appear in the mythology. If he is invoked, it is only in times of extreme distress, but there is no guarantee that he will hear or respond. His name is often revealed only to initiates, and to speak his name aloud is thought to invite disaster or death; his most frequent title is Father. In some traditions, he is conceived to be a transcendent principle of divine order; in others, he is pictured as senile or impotent and replaced by a set of more active and involved deities; and in still other traditions, he has become so remote that he is all but forgotten.” ref

“Dheghom (Proto-Indo-European: *dʰéǵʰōm or *dʰǵʰōm; lit. ‘earth’), or *Pl̥th₂éwih₂ (PIE: *pl̥th₂éwih₂, lit. the ‘Broad One’), is the reconstructed name of the Earth-goddess in the Proto-Indo-European mythology. The Mother Earth (*Dʰéǵʰōm Méh₂tēr) is generally portrayed as the vast (*pl̥th₂éwih₂) and dark (*dʰengwo-) abode of mortals, the one who bears all things and creatures. She is often paired with Dyēus, the daylight sky and seat of the never-dying and heavenly gods, in a relationship of contrast and union, since the fructifying rains of Dyēus might bring nourishment and prosperity to local communities through formulaic invocations. Dheghom is thus commonly associated in Indo-European traditions with fertility, growth, and death, and is conceived as the origin and final dwelling of human beings. The Earth-goddess was widely celebrated with the title of ‘mother’ (*méh₂tēr), and often paired with *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr, the ‘sky-father’. ” ref

“In comparative mythology, sky father is a term for a recurring concept in polytheistic religions of a sky god who is addressed as a “father”, often the father of a pantheon and is often either a reigning or former King of the Gods. The concept of “sky father” may also be taken to include Sun gods with similar characteristics, such as Ra. The concept is complementary to an “earth mother.” ref

“One of the most ancient concepts in religion is that of the divine couple. In Sumeria, the divine couple appears as part of perhaps the earliest notion of the Trinity. God the Father was symbolized as the Sun, his consort was symbolized alternately as either the Moon or the Earth, and the king was viewed as their offspring: the Son of the Sun, a living representative (or emanation) of God on Earth. In many traditions, the gods and goddesses who comprise the divine couple are not seen as being separate or distinct entities, but rather as differing aspects of one another, or even emanations of one another. In this, we see traces of an even more ancient tradition, God as the primordial androgyne. Such a notion has been part of many theologies, although the idea has largely been forgotten or (perhaps) ignored.” ref

“There are two types of world parent myths, both describing a separation or splitting of a primeval entity, the world parent or parents. One form describes the primeval state as an eternal union of two parents, and the creation takes place when the two are pulled apart. The two parents are commonly identified as Sky (usually male) and Earth (usually female), who were so tightly bound to each other in the primeval state that no offspring could emerge. These myths often depict creation as the result of a sexual union and serve as a genealogical record of the deities born from it.” ref

I believe that the birth of the Earth Mother, which may have occurred sometime before 10,000 years ago, or after it sometime at least by 8,000 years ago to likely 9,000 years ago from the Sky Woman/Mistress of Animals, took place at Nevalı Çori (8400-8100 BCE or approximately 10,000 years ago), in Southeastern Anatolia, Turkey. This new Earth Mother/Mistress of Animals goddess is later seen at Çatal Höyük (7,100-5,700 BCE or 9,100 to 7,700 years ago), sitting figurines, and to me, the standing figurines are likely related to the sky. Later, after 6/5,000 years ago, even sky deities may be depicted as sitting and sitting in a chair/stool in general, after this time seems to be associated with elites and deities. These ideas seem to spread in the movement ways of Haplogroup E, west to Central Turkey as seen at seen at Çatal Höyük, on next to west Turkey, then Europe/Balkans/Ukraine, as seen at the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, It moved south to Israel and Egypt/North Africa, as well as Sodi Arabia and the Horn of Africa. These ideas seem to spread East to Iran, then Pakistan/India, as seen in the Indus Valley civilization.

“In Australian Aboriginal mythology, Baiame (or Biame, Biami, Baayami, Baayama, Byamee) is the creator god and sky father, and Birrangulu, or Birrahgnooloo, a “fertility spirit” with powers over water (can send floods if properly asked), maintenance of the earthly landscape, and one of his two wives, can be seen as the mother from the sky, often being identified as an emu. By coming to earth (and possibly staying on earth), she may have become the earth mother and is said to be the mother of Daramulum. Daramulum (variations: Darhumulan, Daramulan, Dhurramoolun or Dharramaalan), a sky hero shapeshifter associated with an emu-wife. In other stories, Dharramalan is said to be the brother of Baiame. The Baiame story tells how Baiame came down from the sky to the land and created rivers, mountains, and forests in all the lands. When he had finished, he returned to the sky, and people called him the Sky Hero, or All Father, or Sky Father. He then gave the people their laws of life, traditions, songs, and culture of several Aboriginal Australian peoples of south-eastern Australia, such as the Wonnarua, Kamilaroi, Guringay, Eora, Darkinjung, and Wiradjuri peoples.” ref, ref, ref 

“There are Australian Aborigines who believed that the Sun Mother created all the animals, plants, and bodies of water on earth upon the urging of the Father of All Spirits. These two divine beings did not actually have children. Only their names reflected the mother-father theme. However, the Sun Mother was portrayed as one who gives life to the sleeping spirits. A human mother also gives life to a spirit.” ref

ref, ref

Supreme Deities in Africa: Religious Myths and Cultural Groups

“A supreme deity, supreme god or supreme being is the conception of the sole deity of monotheistic religions or, in polytheistic or henotheistic religions, the paramount deity or supernatural entity which is above all others. Supreme god or Supreme being: in many religions, it may be a Creator deity, King of the gods, Supreme god, or the singular deity of monotheistic religions.” ref, ref, ref

Of the many Supreme Deities in Africa, 14 are Bantu-related, 7 are Niger-Congo-related, 6 are Afroasiatic-related, and 3 are Nilo-Saharan related. And as Bantu (Niger-Congo B) and Niger-Congo (Niger-Congo A) are related, that makes 21 Supreme Deities in Africa related to the Niger-Congo family A and B subcategories. 

1 Chukwu in Igbo religion, Niger-Congo related
2 Mwari in Shona religion (a Bantu ethnic group) and Nyambe god in Bantu religion
3 Bakongo people/Lele people, Bantu ethnic groups, Nzambi god in Bakongo religion
4 Bassa people, Ngambi/Nyombe god, Bantu related
5 Chokwe people, Nzambi god (similar to the Bakongo god, Nzambi Mpungu), Bantu related
6 Fang people, Nzeme god, also called Mebere, Bantu related
7 Nyoro and Toro people, Nyamuhanga god, Bantu related
8 Hambukushu people, Nyambi god, Bantu related
9 Herero people, god Njambi Kurunga, whom they also refer to as Omukuru, Bantu related
10 Lozi people, Nyambe god, Bantu related
11 Akan people, god Nyame (also Oyame), Bantu related
12 Ọlọrun in Yoruba religion / Ashanti of Ghana: How Spider Obtained the Sky-God’s Stories, Niger-Congo related
13 Ruhanga god in the Rutara religion, Bantu related
14 Mbombo of Bakuba/Kuba mythology, Niger–Congo and Bantu related
15 Unkulunkulu, a god in Zulu mythology, Bantu related
16 Bemba god, Bambara people of Mali, Niger–Congo related
17 Ngewo god, Mende people, Niger–Congo related
18 Waaq (also Waq or Waaqa) god, Cushitic languages (Afro-Asiatic related)
19 Kushite religion, god Amun (also called Asha Renu, Amen, Aman, and Gem Aten), Afroasiatic related
20 Serer religion, god Roog (or Rog), Niger–Congo related
21 Chadian classical religions, Ra sun god/sun spirit, (Afroasiatic language family), and Nilo-Saharan related
22 Khonvoum (also Khonuum, Kmvoum, Chorum), Mbuti (Bambuti) mythology, Bantu related
23 Many different names for God in Lugbara mythology, Nilo-Saharan related
24 Ndzambyaphuungu, Suku people, Bantu related
25 god Gomwa: Gomwa, Gbaya people, Niger-Congo language related
26 Enkai (also called Engai), an androgynous god, Maasai people, Nilo-Saharan related
27 Kamba people, Mulungu/”Nyàmbé” god, Bantu related
28 Berbers of North Africa, sun (Tafukt in Tamazight) and oon (Ayyur in Tamazight), and for some Ancient Egyptian god Amon, Afroasiatic related
29 Chiuta god, Tumbuka group of Bantu peoples, and god Amazigh for Libyan and Tehenu tribes of the Western Desert, Berber related: Afroasiatic related
30 Amun-Ra and Aten, Ancient Egypt, Afroasiatic related

Primordial Waters: The Cosmic Ocean Before Creation

“The Constant: Primordial Waters as Universal Beginning: Waters appear at beginning of creation in myths worldwide (Egypt, Mesopotamia, Bible, Hinduism, Polynesia, Maya, China), No cultural contact when myths formed—independent convergence, Water represents: formless potential, chaos before order, infinite possibility, undifferentiated unity, Waters are pre-creation state—before light, before land, before form, Primordial waters are invariant constant—different calculation methods, same answer, This is not archetypal symbol—this is discovered truth about origins. Etc. etc.” ref

The Primordial Waters Across Cultures

“Where they appear in ancient creation myths, the primeval waters are often associated with chaos and disorder. In many of these myths, the act of creation becomes tantamount to setting order to chaos, or, in other words, to dividing the disordered, watery substance of pre-creation into its subsequent created forms. For the Babylonians, as is inscribed on the seven tablets recounting the Babylonian creation myth or the Enûma Elish, nothing existed in the beginning but Apsu and Tiamat, the masculine and feminine personifications of the chaotic and formless primordial waters. The Egyptians referred to this watery chaos of pre-creation as ‘nu’ or ‘nun,’ a state of unlimited potential out of which the first primeval mound of solid earth would eventually arise.” ref

“Hindu creation narratives also describe a primordial sea. The Vedic deity Prajapati is said to have first emerged from the primeval waters before asking, “For what purpose have I been born if from this which forms no support?” alluding to the shapeless disorder of the ancient oceans. In another story, Prajapati is born of a lotus flower that bloomed while floating across the primeval waters. In the Vaishnava tradition, the supreme deity Narayana, whose name can be translated as ‘the one who rests on water’, initiated a cycle of creation while dreaming upon the primordial Ocean of Milk.” ref

“Half a world away, the indigenous Mixtec people of Mexico describe the same state of formless and shapeless watery darkness of the first time, as translated by Garcia in his Origin de los Indias: “before ever were years or days, the world lay in darkness. All things were odorless, and a water covered the slime and ooze that the earth then was”. Similar Polynesian creation stories also refer to the primeval waters as the original, sole substance of pre-creation. One origin story, for instance, speaks of the prime creator deity Ta’aroa bursting forth from a cosmic egg laid upon the face of the primeval waters, initiating creation.” ref

“With the arrival of the prime god or gods often came order, suggesting that the natural patterns and cycles of creation were believed to have been apportioned or maintained by a divine, creative hand. The Pyramid Texts, the Egyptian religious texts inscribed within the 5th-8th-dynasty pyramids at Saqqara, relate that Ra, by descending upon and calming the waters, “put order in the place of chaos”. For the Egyptians, order was synonymous with Maat, the highly regarded concept of truth and justice, and by subduing the waters, Ra established the supremacy of Maat. The primeval waters of chaos, although defeated, stood in opposition to Maat, and myths of their chaotic churnings served as a reminder of the constant threat of disorder against the established order guarded by the Pharaoh.” ref

“The primeval waters across creation myths often appear to have a twofold nature. On one hand, they signify a muddled state without the predictable patterns and cycles of the universe, the antithesis of creation and order. On the other hand, they represent limitless potential, the creator’s blank slate for his impending creation. Researcher Michael Rappenglück, in his 2014 article in the Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry journal, describes the “undifferentiated materia prima” of the waters as “having the potentiality of creation and regeneration, but also of absorption and destruction of entities,” suggesting a double nature to the watery, primeval state of the universe.” ref

The Spoken Word Used to Subdue the Primordial Waters

“In myths involving the primordial ocean, it is often the spoken word that is the key divine tool used to calm the waters and initiate creation. Perhaps the most familiar examples of this motif come to us from biblical and Islamic theology. In Genesis, God “moved upon the face of the waters,” the biblical version of the formless and void primeval waters (1:2 KJV). To begin creation, God speaks his first command—“Let there be Light” (1:3)—and at this point begins the process of bringing order to the earth and its waters through the power of the spoken word. The Qur’an relates that Allah “made from water every living thing,” (21:30) and that to begin creation, Allah spoke to the earth and sky, commanding them to “come together, willingly or unwillingly” (41:11).” ref

“In the Babylonian creation story, it is said that Ea uttered a powerful spell, a “pure (or white, or holy) incantation” to put an end to the violent primeval waters of Apsu. One Egyptian tradition, preserved in a papyrus from late antiquity in the Metropolitan Museum of Art (quoted by Meeks and Favard-Meeks in Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods) indicates that the ibis-headed god Thoth used the power of the spoken word to bring about creative processes: “I am Thoth, master of the divine words …I know what is concealed in the sky, inaccessible on earth, and hidden in the Primeval Ocean. I am the creator of the sky, he who is at the origin of the mountains … I make the gods and men live.” ref

“The element of the spoken word is preserved in Lakota legend. One story attests that the supreme creative power uniquely used the power of song to mold and shape the mud that would later be applied to the waters to form dry land. Peruvian prayers, furthermore, profess that the creator used his divine word, or ‘ñisca,’ to command creation into being: “Let earth and heaven be,” “let there be day,” “let there be night,” and so forth. In his 1916 study Oceanic Mythology, American anthropologist Roland Dixon compared this Peruvian narrative, interestingly, to a Māori creation myth:

“Io dwelt within the breathing-space of immensity.
The universe was in darkness, with water everywhere,
There was no glimmer of dawn, no clearness, no light.
And he began by saying these words,—
That he might cease remaining inactive:
‘Darkness! become a light-possessing darkness.’
And at once light appeared.” ref

“Here, it must be noted that there is an unsettled debate regarding the origin of the Io myth and, indeed, other myths which share a striking resemblance to the biblical creation story. Some scholars assert that Io entered Māori tradition only at the point of European contact, which would suggest the presence of Christian influence in the story. Others believe that Io existed prior to European contact within the highest priestly circles, and that the notion of a supreme creative deity survived from the earliest traditions. Whatever the case may be, the problem of Io serves as a reminder that mythological similarities are not always what they seem and may point to traces of both ancient and modern contact between cultures.” ref

“The theme of the spoken word as the key mechanism of creation is so pervasive across the ancient world that to speak of all of its appearances would be nearly impossible. For our purposes, it is enough to recognize that the spoken word was often considered the primary power by which the creator or creators set order to the roiling waters of the first time. Further study would reveal that the creative power of the spoken word found its way into traditional religious and social practices of these cultures, from the vocalized spells or ‘utterances’ found in the Pyramid Texts to the spoken curses and blessings of Celtic poetry, revealing a wide-ranging belief that the spoken word could continue to change the physical world as it had done during the process of creation.” ref

“Understanding the primeval waters as a motif in creation myths offers a greater insight into ancient cultures’ individual and shared perceptions of the nature of the world as it was ‘in the beginning’. It also provides a measure of understanding to the architecture and customs stemming from the resulting veneration of the primal waters, and raises questions relating to contact between cultures and cultural diffusion.” ref

:00 to 1:13 – “Some people think flood myths are 10,000 years old and others think it is told by every culture around the world and today I am going to prove those thoughts wrong. When was the first flood story told and where, some people say Noah’s ark or the epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest flood story and this is not true either. Were elements of Noah’s ark, could be 20,000, 30,000, or 40,000 years old. And then there are many theories on why flood myths are told all around the world. Some people think there were many different floods, and others believe there was a global flood thousands of years ago. If one believes so was there one flood where people did not forget or many little floods all over so terrifying that these types of stories are inevitable, to be told again and again wherever they live?” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

3:08 to 4:21 – “There are many misconceptions floating around about flood mythology, which give rise to thinking it was a consequence of melting (massive freshwater runoff from melting glaciers) during the Younger Dryas period (approx. 12,900 to 11,700 years ago) when parts of the earth went cold then warm. Or it was due to the melting of ice caps at the end of the last ice age (known as deglaciation, which spanned 20,000 to 7,000 years ago) and these views can be convincing. So, some self-proclaimed ancient historians state things like not only are Noah’s ark ‘real, it has been found.’ And if you believe in the bible’s stories, you feel those stories are true. You again may think this may be possible. Let me explain the different types of flood stories we tell as humans, explain their differences and why once I have told these we can get into the science of storytelling and the phylogenetic method (phylogenetic method on narratives , used in “phylomemetics,” applies evolutionary analysis to map how these stories, motifs, and cultural traits evolve via descent with modification) to explain how we can predict the answer to where and why the flood myths happened.” -John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

At the Origin of Flood Mythologies. Synthesis of Three Papers

“Abstract: This short article offers a survey of three statistically based on phylogenetic studies of flood myths around the world. The three studies have been published in French. The results offer perspectives on the flood myths of the world having spread with population movements already in the Palaeolithic era. The purpose of this article is to make these results accessible to a wider readership with an added discussion of the collective findings.” ref 

11:30 to 12:00 – “Even if you agree that the Epic of Gilgamesh is the origin then you agree myths can be passed down, you have to admit flood mythology can be passed down by oral tradition for thousands of years to move from the Epic of Gilgamesh to Noah’s ark. This shows that the key parts of the story can be kept and transmitted and we call these key parts we call mythemes.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

12:26 to 20:47 – Rising Sea and Sinking land: “While some people will point out that sea levels have risen, by hundreds of feet, by 100 meter sea rise since the last glacial maximum (global mean sea levels have risen by more than 120 to 130 meters (roughly 400–430 feet), a Sea level; rise does not give rise to the type of flood story we have talked about. If we examen the data and flood stories told all around the world, or almost so. And if the thinking is that all cultures experienced it at the same or similar time it would be where the cultures are now, where we find them today. Such as the Americas, with the first migrations happening between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago (multiple migrations into the Americas bringing different languages and different myths), any worldwide flood must have happened after 25,000 and 15,000 years ago from them to have experienced it ( I think this could be rethought as it misses addressing the multiple migrations into the Americas and thus later chances for the myths to have spread). If we use science and the geological record, we can show the only significant event that could melt ice. The most specific time would have been the Bølling–Allerød Interstadial event (which occurred from 14,690 to c. 12,890 years ago) just before the Younger Dryas, a 30 meter or around 100 feet of sea level rise within 1500 years, averaging a sea rise of less than an inch per year. It is not enough to cause a global catastrophe overnight, to cause the whole world to talk about it in their separate stories becoming flood myths. There are local flooding events, sometimes every year and that has happened for as long as humans have been around. But could people remember the land that was taken over slowly by the sea and make it into myth of flooding? Fiji island people remember a piece of land now submerged and honor the spirits then see an now under the water. Or a story from the Orkney islands telling of a time when a warrior could hunt across a vast stretch of land between two of the islands, and the last time these islands were joind by land was 8,000 years ago. Perhaps this is a story from before sea levels rose. Or in Australia there are similar stories of land now taken by the sea, seemingly related to the outer most lip of the Spencer gulf, now 50 meters or around 150 feet under the water and if the story relates to this it is from as long ago around 12,000 years. And if you think it is from the very highest part, then it is around 8,000 years.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

26:10 to 27:10 – “World reborn story: the Chinese Gun-Yu flood myth, could relate to 4,000-year-old evidence, a large flood at around 1,920 BCE.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“The Great Flood of Gun-Yu was a major flood in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mountains, or nest on the trees. According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300–2200 BCE, during the reign of Emperor Yao. However, archaeological evidence of an outburst flood at Jishi Gorge on the Yellow River, comparable to similar severe events in the world in the past 10,000 years, has been dated to about 1920 BCE (a few centuries later than the traditional beginning of the Xia dynasty which came after Emperors Shun and Yao), and is suggested to have been the basis for the myth. Treated either historically or mythologically, the story of the Great Flood and the heroic attempts of the various human characters to control it and to abate the disaster is a narrative fundamental to Chinese culture. Among other things, the Great Flood of China is key to understanding the history of the founding of both the Xia dynasty and the Zhou dynasty, it is also one of the main flood motifs in Chinese mythology, and it is a major source of allusion in Classical Chinese poetry.” ref 

27:10 to 31:35 – “Shuruppak the Antediluvian city, from the middle east, home to the Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah’s ark. We have evidence of flooding here, 3 meters or around a 20 foot sedimentary layer deposit around 2900 BCE from a river flooding event. Some say this proves the origin of flood stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh or Noah’s ark. And we know the Nile also flooded, thus happening in both areas of the fertile crescent people would likely know of this. River flooding a recurring even, actually helped in early farming and in stories in the region also talked about the lack of water or droughts. Local flooding was a natural part of life for an agricultural farmer. If farming has been happening for 10,000 years, then perhaps the flood story is older than that (I would suggest some rethinking as this does not mean the flood story is older, one could speculate some flood myth in the time of farming beginning but not to then think it has to be before and no solid foundation on farming age alone to think some flood myth has to even be as old as 10,000 years old, just because farming is that old or older).” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“Shuruppak is sometimes also the name of a king of the city, legendary survivor of the Flood, and supposed author of the Instructions of Shuruppak“. The earliest excavated levels at Shuruppak date to the Jemdet Nasr period about 3000 BCE. The city rose in importance and size, exceeding 40 hectares(0.4km²), during the Early Dynastic period. In the Sumerian King List is a ruler, Ubara-Tutu, the last ruler “before the flood”. In some versions he is followed by a son, Ziusudra. In later versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, a man named Utnapishtim, son of Ubara-Tutu, is noted to be king of Shuruppak. This portion of Gilgamesh is thought to have been taken from another literary composition, the Myth of Atrahasis. The report of the 1930s excavation mentions a layer of flood deposits at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period at Shuruppak. Shuruppak in Mesopotamian legend is one of the “antediluvian” cities and the home of King Utnapishtim, who survives the flood by making a boat beforehand. Schmidt wrote that the flood story of the Bible, seems to be based on a very real event or a series of such, as suggested by the existence at Ur, at Kish, and now at Fara, of inundation deposits, which accumulated on top of human inhabitation. There is finally “the Noah story,” which may possibly symbolize the survival of the Sumerian culture and the end of the Elamite Jemdet Nasr culture. The deposit is like that deposited by river avulsions, a process that was common in the Tigris–Euphrates river system.” ref

27:10 to 33:00 – “Drought myths, like the storm god and the dragon, a story we see in a number of forms. But the plot usually goes, the land needs rain so the storm god, fights and defeats the dragon to get control of the water and thus allowing it to rain. And this increased the importance of the storm god in agricultural pantheons. So, sometimes elevated to the role of Chef god or the Chef god took on properties of a storm god for this reason. But why defeat a dragon? It is because the mythology is that the dragon has always been a controller of water, though usually for good but if humans wanted water, it would make sense the dragon was now bad because it was not giving us the water. Thus, the storm god goes into the clouds, sometimes with magical weapons and if all went well it would rain.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

34:25 to 36:19 – “Putting this all together, we can see not all flood myths are the same. If many cultures are telling flood stories, many of which are different and there is no evidence for a worldwide flood in the last 100,000 years, are the stories being told a response to individual experiences of flooding and local devastation? Or is it before 100,000 years and was transmitted to different areas when people migrated out to where they are now and adapted it to their local areas (Why would we be logically motivated to think this?)?” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“The recent African origin of modern humans or the “Out of Africa” theory  holds that present-day humans outside Africa descend mainly from a single expansion of anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) from Africa about 70,000–50,000 years ago. It is the most widely accepted paleo-anthropological model of the geographic origin and early migration of the human species.” ref

39:00 to 40:00 – “Flood stories are different so there is no evidence that one flood myth led to them all the stories are too different. The fact that there are so many different flood stories pushes back on thinking there was just one flood myth from which it all derived. This is why we should look at the different myths and see if there are different categories and see if the different categories are linked or dispersed causing different flood stories over different regions of the world.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

ref

Maps differ in searches, and this would also mean that using them to create probabilities of confusion. See how grouped C6 has more but loses spots in South America, shown in the simpler C6 version. And in the grouped C6, it not only has more spots in North Asia and North America, but it also lists sites in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Australia.

ref

41:32 to 50:30 – “One thing the study of folklore and mythology tells us is that stories may change, normally to reflect changes in society or in the landscape but the core mythemes of a story rarely do. Thus, why we see dragons needing to be beaten by a storm god to release that water. The same core Storm god fighting a Dragon story, exists from the Middle East to India, with only the details changing. Because before the spread of agriculture, Dragons were associated with and thus givers of life. Primordial beings associated with creation and life in many cultures. So, let’s talk about the real FLOOD STORIES – cosmogonic flood myths – where the world resets like a creation myth. Because that is the kind of flood myth people tend to think about, like Noah’s ark. Noah’s ark has a bird in its story (and so too does the Mesopotamian flood story: Utnapishtim sends out a dove, a swallow, and a raven. Similarly, Noah releases a raven and a dove.) and mythologists list this motif as bird scout. Similarly, the Earth diver mythology has a bird diving to the bottom to bring up land. (I have heard several times in John White’s Cregonford videos where he seems to imply only birds are involved in Earth diver mythology, or leaves out that there are more possible animals than just birds commonly in Earth diver mythology. I would suggest some rethinking on doing this. These two motifs, the Bird scout and the Earth diver, are very similar; both birds are traveling in search of land, and one bird travels downward, and the other bird travels across the water. We would expect creation myths like Earth diver to turn into flood myths, not flood myth involving a Bird scout to turn into a creation myth.” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

54:00 to 54:50 – “Did flood myths in the Americas start in the Americas, or did they come in the earliest migrations? And if flood myths came in to the Americas in the first migrations, it would be proof, that at a minimum, some flood myths are at least 14,000 years old (I would suggest some rethinking as this misses addressing the multiple migrations into the Americas and thus later chances for the myths to have spread and gives a less than logical reason they had to come in with the first migrations).” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

African Back Migrations and the Status of Shamanism Origins as well as its Spreading

56:15 to 56:24 – “If a motif is present in South America and Africa it will be between 45,000 and 47,000 years old at a minimum, due to thinking it must have been transmitted in the out of Africa migration thinking (I would suggest some rethinking as this misses addressing the multiple migrations back into Africa 30,000 “U6 mt-DNA”, 10,000 “J Y-DNA”, 9,000 “T Y-DNA” 8,000-7,000 “R1b-v88 Y-DNA”, 6,000-5,000 “Mesopotamia trade relations” years ago, and the 20,000, 10,000 and 5,000 years ago out of Africa migrations of haplogroup E, that also could have involved flood myths. Not to mention trade between Africa/Egypt did go on with the Middle East and beyond from 5,100 years ago with the first pharaoh, to the end of the Old Kingdom, around 4,200 years ago. As well as the multiple migrations into South America, thus giving multiple later chances for the myths to have spread.).” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“Neolithic J1 goat herders were almost certainly not homogenous tribes consisting exclusively of J1 lineages, but in all likelihood a blend of J1 and T1 lineages. So much is evident from the presence of both J1 and T1 in north-east Africa, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, but also in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus and the mountainous parts of southern Europe. Maternal lineages also correlate. Wherever J1 and T1 are found in high frequency, mtDNA haplogroups HV, N1 and U3 are also present, as well as J, K and T to a lower extent (=>see Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders). It is unclear whether goats were domesticated by a tribe that already comprised both J1 and T1 lineages, or if the merger between the two groups happened during the Neolithic expansion, when two separate tribes would have bumped into each others, intermixed, and thereafter propagated together.” ref

Green Sahara: attracted “Back to Africa” migrations and culminated in the dispersals of “New” African cultures, including Ancient Egypt

ref

“Mesopotamia trade relations with Egypt developed from the 4th millennium BCE, starting in the Uruk period for Mesopotamia (circa 4000–3100 BCE or around 6,000 to 5,000 years ago) and the half a millennium younger Gerzean culture of Prehistoric Egypt (circa 3500–3200 BCE), and constituted a largely one-way body of influences from Mesopotamia into Egypt. By the 14th century BCE, the Amarna Letters show active, formal diplomatic correspondence and gift exchanges between Egyptian pharaohs and Mesopotamian rulers, using Akkadian as the common language. And with Semitic languages that had evolved in West Asia circa 4000 BCE being introduced via the Arabian Peninsula and Levant into the Horn of Africa around 1500–500 BCE.”  ref

“Males carrying C-M130 are believed to have migrated to the Americas some 6,000-8,000 years ago, and was carried by Na-Dené-speaking peoples into the northwest Pacific coast of North America. And C-M217 is found in the Wayuu people of Colombia and Venezuela.” ref

“Wayuu or Guajiro people are Indigenous to the Guajira Peninsula in northern Colombia and northwest Venezuela. The Wayuu language is part of the Arawakan language family, predominant in different parts of the Caribbean.” ref

“Y-chromosome frequencies throughout the Americas: Two haplogroups are presented: Q-M242 and C-M130. Haplogroup Q-M242, containing subgroups, is found in each tested population within the Americas. Haplogroup C-M130 is almost absent in Central and South America.” ref

“14 individuals from two nearby populations in Ecuador carried haplogroup C3* (Haplogroup C-M217, previously as C3), with this haplogroup reaching 26% frequency in the Kichwa (or Quichua) sample and 7.5% in the Waorani (or Huaorani). The estimated TMRCA for the combined Ecuadorian C-M217 chromosomes was 5,000–6,200 years ago. The finding of this haplogroup in Ecuador was surprising because C-M217 is otherwise unreported from the Americas, but is widespread and common in East Asia.” ref

“The oldest samples of haplogroup C-M217 were found among Ancient Northeast Asians of the Amur region in Northeast Asia, forming the natural border between the Russian Far East and Northeast China. Haplogroup C-M217 is the most frequently occurring branch of the wider Haplogroup C M130. The haplogroup C-M217 is now found at high frequencies among Central Asian peoples, indigenous Siberians, and mainly in some Native peoples of North America. In particular, males belonging to peoples such as the Buryats, Evens, Evenks, Itelmens, Tom Tatars, Kalmyks, Kazakhs, Koryaks, Mongolians, Negidals, Nivkhs, Udege, and Ulchi have high levels of M217.” ref, ref

Of note, “Koryaks, an Indigenous people of the Russian Far East, culturally similar to the Chukchis of extreme northeast Siberia, and some linguistic similarity exists between the Nivkh and the Koryak. Koryaks believe in a Supreme Being whom they call by various names: ŋajŋənen (Universe/World), ineɣitelʔən (Supervisor), ɣət͡ɕɣoletənvəlʔən (Master-of-the-Upper-World), ɣət͡ɕɣolʔən (One-on-High), etc. He is considered to reside in Heaven with his family, and when he wishes to punish mankind for immoral acts, he falls asleep and thus leaves man vulnerable to unsuccessful hunting and other ills. Koryak mythology centers on the supernatural shaman Quikil (Big-Raven), who was created by the Supreme Being as the first man and protector of the Koryak. Big Raven myths are also found in Southeast Alaska in the Tlingit culture, who speak a 5,000-year-old Na-Dene language, and among the Haida, Tsimshian, and other Native people of the Pacific Northwest Coast Amerindians.” ref

“Quechua or Kichwa people are Indigenous peoples of South America who speak the Quechua languages, which originated among the Indigenous people of Peru.” ref

“The presence of C3-MPB373 is found both in the Amazonian lowland Kichwa with frequencies up to 28 % and, for the first time, in notable proportions in Kichwa populations from the Ecuadorian highlands. The substantially higher frequencies of C3-MPB373 in the Amazonian lowlands found in Kichwa and Waorani individuals suggest a founder effect in that area. Notably, estimates for the time to the most recent common ancestor in the range of 7,200–9,000 years ago point to an ancient origin of the haplogroup and suggest an early Holocene expansion of C3-MPB373 into South America.” ref 

“Waorani or Huaorani people are an Indigenous people from the Amazonian Region of Ecuador.” ref

“C2b1a1a P39 Canada, USA (Found in several indigenous peoples of North America, including some Na-Dené-, Algonquian-, or Siouan-speaking populations)

C2b1a2b B90 Found frequently in Koryaks and Nivkhs and with lower frequency among Ulchi, Evenks, Evens, Yukaghirs, and Chukchi.” ref

^{Moreover, “the Na-Dene, Inuit, and Native Alaskan populations exhibit Haplogroup Q-M242; however, they are distinct from other Indigenous Americans with various mtDNA and atDNA mutations.} This suggests that the people who first settled in the northern extremes of North America and Greenland derived from later migrant populations than those who penetrated farther south in the Americas. Linguists and biologists have reached a similar conclusion based on analysis of Indigenous American language groups and ABO blood group system distributions.” ref

“Also observed is evidence of a greater level of diversity and a lesser level of population structure in western South America compared to eastern South America. There is a relative lack of differentiation between Mesoamerican and Andean populations, a scenario that implies that coastal routes (in this case, along the coast of the Pacific Ocean) were easier for migrating peoples (more genetic contributors) to traverse in comparison with inland routes.” ref

“Those who speak Inuit languages from the Arctic inherited almost half of their ancestry from a second East Asian migrant wave, and those who speak Na-Dene inherited a tenth of their ancestry from a third migrant wave. Haplogroup C-M217 descendant C-P39 is most commonly found in today’s Na-Dene speakers, with the greatest frequency found among the Athabaskans at 42%, and at lesser frequencies in some other Indigenous American groups. Some researchers feel that this may indicate that the Na-Dene migration occurred from the Russian Far East after the initial Paleo-Indigenous American colonization, but prior to modern Inuit, Inupiat, and Yupik expansions. In addition to in Na-Dene peoples, haplogroup C-P39 (C2b1a1a) is also found among other Indigenous Americans such as Algonquian– and Siouan-speaking populations. C-M217 is found among the Wayuu people of Colombia and Venezuela.” ref

Not to mention, I would suggest some rethinking of the multiple internal migrations north to south America and south to north America, or central to both north and south America, all of which could have, and seemingly did, diffuse mythological beliefs and thinking.

54:00 to 58:17 – “The question to ask is, did the flood myths being told in America, start in America or did they come in with the earliest migrations of humans. And if they came in the first migrations then this would be proof that at least some flood myths originate from a minimum of 14,000 years ago as that is when the end of the earliest migrations happened. And if that is the case then the myth must have been defused from a source outside the Americas. Hypothesis of that source would be central Aisa, Southeast Aisa or even Africa, during the out of Africa if the myth can be shown to be over 45,000 years old. Analysis of two papers on flood myths highlights a global pattern of distribution with the north and southern hemispheres of the earth. From this it was seen that where motifs occur acrost the southern hemisphere, Specifically Africa, Southeast Aisa, Australia, and south America that they could relate to out of Africa migrations. If a motif is present in South America and Africa it will be between 45,000 and 47,000 years old at a minimum, due to thinking it must have been transmitted in the out of Africa migration thinking. But it may be much older told in Africa before migrating out. In the northern hemispheres the flood mythology while transmitted while in Eurasia and subsequently were introduced to North America in the second significant wave of migrations into the Americas. Research indicates that there were 4 significant separate migrations into the Americas. The second significant wave of migration is proposed due to a cluster of similar myths. Older people were assimilated this second flood myth or were pushed further south. (This could use some rethinking as this is a questionable speculation of accepting the flood myth, or why they moved south) This second migration from northern Eurasia can be demonstrated by DNA. (I would suggest some rethinking, as DNA shows the first migrations into the Americas were mainly from northern Eurasia with input from East Asia. DNA evidence from the second migration to the Americas, ancient Northeast Asians genetically similar to an East Asian genetic component within Native Americans.).” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“The Ulchi are linked to 7,700 year old remains from Chertovy Vorota Cave (“Devil’s Gate”) and are also genetically similar to an East Asian genetic component within Native Americans. The Ulchi do not appear to have originally possessed the “Ancient North Eurasian” (ANE) genetic component found in low frequency in Native Americans and Central Asian.” ref

“Chertovy Vorota Cave, also known as Devil’s Gate Cave, DevilsGate1 mtDNA haplogroup to be D4, DevilsGate 2 mtDNA haplogroup M, and Y-DNA haplogroup C2b-F6273/Y6704/Y6708, equivalent to C2b-L1373, the northern (Central Asian, Siberian, and indigenous American) branch of haplogroup C2-M217. DevilsGate1 shares greatest drift with Ulchi followed in order by Oroqen, Hezhen, Korean, Japanese, and Nganasan, whereas DevilsGate2 shares greatest drift with Ulchi followed in order by Nganasan, Hezhen, Korean, Japanese, and Oroqen. The genetic distance from the ancient Chertovy Vorota individuals to the Mal’ta boy is the same as that from modern East Asian populations to the Mal’ta boy.” ref

“Mal’ta boy: 24,000-year-old remains were found near Mal’ta, Siberia, which is usually known by the abbreviation MA-1. MA-1 belonged to the population of Ancient North Eurasians, who were genetically “intermediate between modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but distant from east Asians”, and partial genetic ancestors of Siberians, Native Americans, Eastern hunter-gatherer, and Bronze Age Yamnaya and Botai people of the Eurasian steppe. A people similar to MA1 and Afontova Gora were important genetic contributors to Native Americans, Siberians, Europeans, Caucasians, Central Asians, with smaller contributions to Middle Easterners and some East Asians. In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, and Selkup have been found to harbor a significant amount of ancestry related to MA-1.” ref

Multiple Migrations into the Americas from North Asia, bringing different DNA, Languages, Cultural thinking, and Religious Ideas

ref – From the video: Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence

John proudly offered this series of maps showing no mythology getting to, originating, or even evolving in Western Europe, where a large amount of early symbolic art is found. Error, the maps show mythology getting down to South America, yet not in Western Europe, and only the second younger mythology finally reaches Western Europe.

Moreover, I find this map explanation could use some rethinking, as it doesn’t show mythology going or developing in Europe. When it is in Paleolithic Europe, we truly see the origin of advanced rock art and the creation of figurines, demonstrating a rich, developed, and evolving mythology inspiring Paleolithic European art. Even if some myths got there originating in Africa or the Middle East in the earliest dispersals they obviously advanced and evolved in Europe with “Aurignacian Culture (with the oldest examples of figurative art), paternal haplogroups C1a, C1b, K2a, and maternal N, R, and U before around 35,000 years ago when new people and Ideas Gravettian Culture (oldest examples of elaborate burials: with lots of jewelry and other burial goods) paternal haplogroups BT, CT, C1a2, F, IJK, I, and maternal M, U2, and U5 started coming in from the split from Asian and Europeans.” ref, ref

Y-DNA paternal haplogroup BT branched to CT, which branched to CF, which then branched to C and F, which then branched to IJk, and that then branched off to I, just to offer a simplified outline of the DNA connectedness. Haplogroup F and its subclades constitute over 95% of paternal lineages outside of Africa today. ref, ref

“European individuals did not form an independent clade but branched within the East Asians, estimated time is ∼41,000 years ago.” ref

“The most common Y-chromosome haplogroups among Aboriginal Australians are C1b2, followed by haplogroups S and M; these latter haplogroups are also very frequent among Papuans.” ref

ref

I added the red lines to make this confusing map easier to grasp, or that was the goal. 

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I added extensions of both C1b and CM217 that map migrations.

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I added the red lines to make this confusing map easier to grasp, or that was the goal. 

ref, ref

I offer different proposals for haplogroup C Y-DNA migrations as examples, but all move both east and west; thus, the mythology it had in Africa would have done the same.

If, as it seems, mythologists propose that myths left Africa and made it to Australia, then they are talking about Y-DNA C as the distributor of this earliest mythology, and that means it not only went to Australia but to Europe as well!

58:17 to 101:18 – “The story of the dispersal of the flood myth does not end there. As the date shows, there was independent flood myth development in Eurasia, which then migrated into northern Africa. And this is consistent with other phylogenetic studies of mythology. Overall, the dysfunction pattern offered as mythology migrates out of Africa and then around the world, with the myth first starting in Africa, then spreading to all of Africa, and then out. (I would suggest some rethinking, as this speculated overall distribution pattern offered as mythology migrates out of Africa misses that humans were in France first over 50,000 years ago, and in Germany by 47,000 years ago.) Also, Homo sapiens reached Australia at least by 50,000 and possibly 60,000 years ago.)” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“Homo sapiens, related to those alive today reached Australia at least by 50,000 and possibly 60,000 years ago.” ref, ref

aaaaref

111:44 to 112:10 – “It should be pointed out that the Earth Diver motif was originally considered a primordial ocean motif, not a flood myth, and so certain methodologies used in the study would not have picked this up. And this should be noted where future research takes place. (So, it seems we are hearing John White’s speculation that the Earth Diver motif is a flood myth motif, but did not highlight it as such clearly? He seems to talk with confidence about research relating to the Earth Diver motif, a flood myth motif, then states others in that research did not hold such a speculation. This could use some rethinking, as this in conveying what is research speculation/hypothesis and what may be his outside speculation/hypothesis. I like John generally, I think he is well informed on myths, but think he pushes the bounds of stating confidence, often talking matter of fact *though he also adds some random unsureness* but not consistently to his speculations offered. Also, I would suggest some rethinking, as he leaves out elements that could lower confidence if addressed, and when claiming to be offering others truth/knowledge.)” – John White (Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence)

“If the myth of the earth-diver existed from the beginning of human expansion into North Eurasia, it was probably not yet linked to the cause of the flood and was instead linked to a primordial ocean. The connection between the earth-diver and the flood would have been established later – and on an ad hoc basis – in Eurasia and North America. The absence of the Earth-diver from the reconstruction during the diffusion of myths in North America is explained by the methodological choices that presided over the analysis: motifs unrelated to the flood were excluded, which included the Earth-diver as connected instead to the primordial ocean. Moreover, the link between Earth-diver and the flood seems late and not permanent.” – At the Origin of Flood Mythologies: Synthesis of Three Papers (RMN Newsletter 15–16 (2020–2021): 70–76) ref

as as ref

20:30 to 20:44 – “When people talk about star constellations, and there being representative of symbols within ancient sites, really challenge those people, how do they know? (I am happy to hear he thinks challenging people is a needed thing. Obviously, he needs some thoughtful challenges of his own. The truth is best championed in the sunlight of challenge. Such as some rethinking in referring to the Earth Diver myth as commonly related to birds, rarely stating other animals like a frog or a turtle, ETC. But even then, not telling them all, which can involve a muskrat or even a boar. What should we think of a mythologist expert not addressing all the possible animals in this myth, which can involve waterbirds, loon, duck, bullfrog, turtle, muskrat, otter, beaver, or arthropod/such as a crawfish?)” – John White (What do our Oldest Myths mean?)

“Four animals—a duck, a bullfrog, a muskrat, and a turtle—sought a proper solution. Each brought forth their ideas to build their new haven, but their arguing voices grew by the day. Only Muskrat, despite being the smallest, conceived an answer: to balance the water with the earth. Morning and night, he gathered mud from the bottom of the sea and brought it to the surface, but while doing so, Muskrat passed away. Before dying, the “Earth Diver” managed to spread the mud on Turtle’s back, creating the foundation for the earth that humans now inhabit.” ref

“Depending on the region, the diving creatures are different – in Eurasia, it’s waterfowl birds – loon and duck, in North America, it’s amphibians such as turtle or frog, animals such as otter or beaver, or waterbirds, in Northeast India and the American Southwest, it’s arthropods.” ref

“In the beginning, there was only water. A council of creatures from the air and water meets and decides that there should be land. The Creek story has it that a dove first attempted and failed to find land, and the Yuchi, the beaver, and the otter failed. But all traditions agree that the crawfish was successful. The crawfish dove down beneath the water and came up after a long time with dirt in his claws. According to the Creek text, a ball was made from this dirt. The Earth was made of this ball of wet dirt.” ref

ref

40,000-year-old Cosmic Hunt Myth? ref

Maps offered by John differ from those in the Cosmic Hunt videos, and this would also mean that using them to create probabilities could use some rethinking.

Bear Cults, Bear Worship, Bear Sacrifice, and the Cosmic Hunt

From the beginning until 21:53 in the video (What do our Oldest Myths mean?): All the evidence for connectedness given for the “Cosmic Hunt” mythology is lacking in the emergence (man ascends/humans come up from the underground) mythology. He explains in reasonable detail how the cosmic hunt mythology relates to each other, with many factors being the same in different myths. And how it is possibly 40,000 years old, as that is when the stars do what is said in the myth. Where he thinks this happened is in Siberia or central Asia due to the distributions.” – John White

I think it could have quickly reached Siberia, as there were frequent movements and interactions within hunting groups. But I think there could be some rethinking as John leaves out that a seeming possible “Cosmic Hunt” mythology version is in France (Where I think the “Cosmic Hunt” mythology started in France around 40,000 years ago, moving next to Germany, next to Central Europe, then Siberia, where it spreads from to all over. Why it is hard to see this origin is due to the myth in France and Germany being taken over by the much younger “Wild Hunt” mythology).

ref

Maps differ in searches, and this would also mean that using them to create probabilities would likewise hold confusion. See how grouped C6 has more but loses spots in South America, shown in the simpler C6 version. And in the grouped C6, it not only has more spots in North Asia and North America, but it also lists sites in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Australia.

Furthermore, I would suggest some rethinking, like broadening the “Earth Diver” mytheme to a similar mytheme, like “Diving for Land,” which is shown with a much broader dispersal. And if we add “Land Emerging out of Water” mythology, or “Earth is Lowered onto the Water” type of mythology, it is even more vast, which seems more than reasonable, if you add both below and above ground for “Emergence from the Underworld” as connected. If the emergence of people can be grouped by both under the world and above the world methods, then the obtaining of the earth either from below or from above should likewise be grouped together, so that the two grouped myths can actually be assessed; to do otherwise to me is to start with a misconception before any other assessments are thought out. The problem is this: beginning with a misconception is just what is happening when mythologists assess the grouped Emergence mythology and place it against the non-grouped Earth Diver” mytheme, then thinking they have identified some difference between the two.

*John knows there is a broader distribution of the grouped myths, so showing only a limited version needs to be rethought.

23:12 ref – Uses the broad themes of emergence (man ascends/humans come up from the underground) mythology, but up against a limited Earth diver theme.

21:53 to 22:33 Claims the oldest myths are creation myths, and there are two types of creation myths to him: how the world came to be, and how people came to be on the world already in existence. (Thus, the oldest themes would be the existence before creation in these myths, such as the cosmic or primordial waters.)” – John White (What do our Oldest Myths mean?)

22:10 to 20:44 – “The oldest creation myth we know of is man ascends. Were man, well humans come up through the underground or a hole in a tree. (I would suggest some rethinking because it seems stated as fact, when the research states only a possibility or probability)” – John White (What do our Oldest Myths mean?)

The emergence of the first people from the underworld: Another cosmogonic myth of a possible African origin

“Should we have in the Old World only African and Asian cases of the Emergence myth, the probability of the Asian origin of this motif would be about the same as of its African origin. But the distribution of the motif all along the African – Australian arch (besides the Arabian – Iranian gap for which data are scarce or completely absent) makes it more probable that it spread with the first groups of Homo sapiens.” ref

“The emergence of the first people from the underworld: Another cosmogonic myth of a possible African origin” https://www.academia.edu/86015440/The_emergence_of_the_first_people_from_the_underworld_Another_cosmogonic_myth_of_a_possible_African_origin

To me, this article seems to commit a selection bias in using a varied set of narratives for one mytheme, “emergence,” and limiting the narrative for the mytheme “Earth Diver” by the comparative mythology researcher to reach a biased conclusion between them.

*This article “could use some rethinking” because it does not address the two standardized mythemes “Earth Diver” and “Emergence from an Underworld,” instead it heightens the broadness beyond Underworld Emergence to things in the Aboveground World Emergence, while keeping Earth Diver standardized.

*Likewise, “I would suggest some rethinking” as this article is not approching both myths equally in my thinking, by employing a varied set of narratives both from below and things not below for one mytheme “emergence” also seem questionable, acting as if emerging from the ground is related to emerging from an above-ground: reed, bamboo, tree, or a rock; all above ground and not below, thus doing this seems a possible distortion of universals or creating overly broad artificial similarities.

From John’s Mythology Database

B3 has 6 other sub-motifs

Earth is lowered onto the water
B3.  At first, the earth is soft, resembling a swamp.
B3a.  The waters are primary. The earth is lowered onto the water, appears above the water, grows from a piece of solid substance placed on the surface of the water or liquid mud, from an island in the ocean, is exposed when the waters recede, etc.
B3b.  Initially, the earth or the world as a whole was small in size, then it grew; fertile soil grew from a small amount of initial substance. See motif B3A (the earth grows from a piece of solid substance thrown onto the surface of the water).
B3c.  When the creator, having created the land, lies down to rest, the antagonist tries to drown him, dragging him to the edge of the earth. As a result, the earth expands, and the antagonist is unable to reach its edge.
B3d.  The earth is obtained by a worm; it arises from worm excrement, extracted from the worm.
B3e.  At first, below the sky there is only air and water or (rarely) swamp, an indefinite abyss. A character descends from the sky, creates or has a support created for him, and the earth grows out of it; the earth is lowered, dropped from the sky; the earth is thrown, placed on the surface of the sea, and grows into land; the earth is brought from somewhere else (not from the underworld) and placed on the waters. (This is a more general motif compared to motif b79a1, “The bird dropped the firmament onto the waters”).
B3F.  A character in the sky accidentally drops an object. The search for this object in the world below the sky leads to the creation of the earth or a change in its appearance.

ref – Bird Scout map in Flood Mythology Completely Rewritten by New Evidence

See how the two Bird Scout maps here and below have different spots listed: more in North Asia and North America, and the one below also lists sites in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Australia, which the other Bird Scout map does not. (Both are maps John offered in different videos.)

26:02 ref – Bird Scout map in What do our Oldest Myths mean? shows a different map than in a different video. Maps differ in videos, as in searches on John’s Mythology Database, and this would likewise mean that using them to create probabilities could introduce confusion. (I would suggest some rethinking on this)

23:37 to 23:58 “Claims the difference from the emergence mytheme and Earth diver mytheme are due to two different dispersals going on or two different dispersal ages. With to him the emergence mytheme being the oldest myth seen in places like Australia, Southern Africa, and South America. And to him the Earth diver mytheme came afterwords and hasn’t managed to get to the extremities and the cultures priests with the earlier myths.” – John White (What do our Oldest Myths mean?)

24:55 to 26:00 “He claims the Earth diver mytheme had a version two, the bird scout. And the bird scout is interesting as it tends to relate to flood myths. And we see this in Noah’s Ark, where a bird tells if it has found land after the flood. He claims this bird finding land in the bird scout mytheme is exactly the same as the Earth diver mytheme where a bird brings up land. Thus, he claims the bird scout mytheme is just the Earth diver mytheme reimagined. He claims, so again we are seeing an evolution of myth.” – John White (What do our Oldest Myths mean?)

Sifting through the relation of Bird spirits/deities of the sky (20,000 to 5,000 years ago)

Damien Marie AtHope’s Art 

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Based on the seeming evidence, I speculate that around 14,000 years ago, it could be possible that Siberian Shamanism (along with dogs and a bird carving, different but yet possibly related to the bird carvings in Siberia dating from 24,000 to 15,000 years ago) was transferred to China, after “N” DNA reached Siberia, bringing them pottery. Bird sculptures through ethnographic comparison at 24,000–15,000 years old Mal’ta with objects used by Siberian shamans, suggest a fully developed shamanism.

Investigating Asian Shamanism: “Wu” (Chinese shaman) and (Chinese shamanism) “Wuism” or “Wu” religion as well as Others to Understand

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Here is why there are similar mythologies, especially bird myths, shared in the Nordic region, Siberia, and the Pacific Northwest of North America: they originated in Siberia.

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Damien Marie AtHope’s Art

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Shamanism-related Trickster god/spirit, Raven or Crow

Big Raven Kutkh is important in the shamanic tradition of the Koryaks and other indigenous Chukotko-Kamchatkan peoples of the Russian Far East, Chukchi, Koryaks, and Itelmens. Many of the stories regarding Kutkh are similar to those of the Raven among the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, the Tsimishians, Haidas, Heiltsuks, Tlingits, Tahltan, Kwakwaka’wakw, Nuu-chah-nulth, Coast Salish, Koyukons, and Inuit, indicating cultural contact between North Asian and North American peoples. ref, ref, ref, ref, ref, ref

Shamanism-related Trickster god/spirit, Raven or Crow

Haplogroup N from China to Fennoscandia: Migrations and Relationship of Language (Dene-Yeniseian and Uralic), DNA, and Cultures

Postglacial genomes from foragers across Northern Eurasia reveal prehistoric mobility associated with the spread of the Uralic and Yeniseian languages

Abstract: The North Eurasian forest and forest-steppe zones have sustained millennia of sociocultural connections among northern peoples. We present genome-wide ancient DNA data for 181 individuals from this region spanning the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age. We find that Early to Mid-Holocene hunter-gatherer populations from across the southern forest and forest-steppes of Northern Eurasia can be characterized by a continuous gradient of ancestry that remained stable for millennia, ranging from fully West Eurasian in the Baltic region to fully East Asian in the Transbaikal region. In contrast, cotemporaneous groups in far Northeast Siberia were genetically distinct, retaining high levels of continuity from a population that was the primary source of ancestry for Native Americans. By the mid-Holocene, admixture between this early Northeastern Siberian population and groups from Inland East Asia and the Amur River Basin produced two distinctive populations in eastern Siberia that played an important role in the genetic formation of later people. Ancestry from the first population, Cis-Baikal Late Neolithic-Bronze Age (Cisbaikal_LNBA), is found substantially only among Yeniseian-speaking groups and those known to have admixed with them. Ancestry from the second, Yakutian Late Neolithic-Bronze Age (Yakutia_LNBA), is strongly associated with present-day Uralic speakers. We show how Yakutia_LNBA ancestry spread from an east Siberian origin ~4.5kya, along with subclades of Y-chromosome haplogroup N occurring at high frequencies among present-day Uralic speakers, into Western and Central Siberia in communities associated with Seima-Turbino metallurgy: a suite of advanced bronze casting techniques that spread explosively across an enormous region of Northern Eurasia ~4.0kya. However, the ancestry of the 16 Seima-Turbino-period individuals–the first reported from sites with this metallurgy–was otherwise extraordinarily diverse, with partial descent from Indo-Iranian-speaking pastoralists and multiple hunter-gatherer populations from widely separated regions of Eurasia. Our results provide support for theories suggesting that early Uralic speakers at the beginning of their westward dispersal where involved in the expansion of Seima-Turbino metallurgical traditions, and suggests that both cultural transmission and migration were important in the spread of Seima-Turbino material culture.” ref

The impacts of bronze age in the gene pool of Chinese: Insights from phylogeographics of Y-chromosomal haplogroup N1a2a-F1101

“A revised phylogenetic tree of haplogroup N1a2a-F1101 were constructed with age estimation (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S1). The haplogroups N1a2b-P43 and N1a2a-F1101 split at about 9300 years ago. There are similarities in the early history of the two haplogroups. They all experienced a very significant expansion after a bottleneck period of nearly 5,000 years and became the dominant paternal lineage of descendant populations. The main downstream branch of N1a2a-F1101 is N1a2a1-F1154, and the main differentiation node time is 4400 and 4000 years ago, and dozens of downstream branches are born. Among them, N1a2a1a1a1a1-F710 has undergone significant expansion after 3,350 years ago, giving birth to more than 70 downstream clades (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S1). This topology suggests that the population expansion experienced by this paternal line around 3,000 years ago was the most significant of all paternal lineages in ancient East Asian populations at the same history period. Previously, ancient DNA studies suggested that this paternal line may be the paternal lineage of the Zhou Dynasty, the third dynasty of ancient China (Ma et al., 2021; Wei et al., 2022). The differentiation topology of this study supports the results of ancient DNA findings.” ref

Early history between 9,300 and 4,400 years ago

“As the only two downstream clades of N1a2-L666, the geographical distribution of N1a2a-F1101 and N1a2b-P43 is very different from each other. Ancient DNA studies have identified early branches of N1a2a-F1101 and N1a2b-P43 in sites in the Baikal region (de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018; Kilinc et al., 2021; Ma et al., 2021). The most recent branch of N1a2-L666 is N1a1-M46, the main paternal type of the Uralic population (Ilumäe et al., 2016). The first two early branches under N1a1-M46, N1a1b-Y149447 and N1a1a3-F4065, are mainly distributed in northeast China (https://www.yfull.com/tree/N/) (Hu et al., 2015). Therefore, we speculate that the initial spread of haplogroup N1a2-L666 may have been in the southwestern part of northeastern China (Figure 3). We proposed that this region is also the initial diffusion center of N1a1-M46, while the diffusion of N1a1-M46 (>12 kya) happened earlier than that of N1a2-L666 (<9.3 kya) (Hu et al., 2015). In the early Holocene (about 11.2kya-8kya), with climate change and the rise of early agricultural populations in northern China, a part of the descendants of the ancestor group, representing by sub-lineage N1a2b-P43, spread to the high latitude region of Siberia, eventually becoming part of the Ural-speaking populations. The other part, representing by sub-lineage N1a2a-F1101, remained in the local area and participated in the formation of the northern Chinese populations in the later historical period (Figure 3).” ref

“A bottleneck period of 5,000 years was observed early in the evolution of N1a2a-F1101 (Figure 1, Supplementary Table S1). Similar lengthy bottleneck periods were observed in downstream structures of N1a2b-P43, N1a1-M46, and Q1a1a-M120 (Ilumäe et al., 2016; Sun et al., 2019). This evolutionary pattern is very different from the expansion pattern of ancient agricultural populations in East Asia, which continued to expand since the beginning of Neolithic age (Yan et al., 2014). The differentiation of the downstream clades of Q-M242 and N-231 presents a similar structure, i.e., downstream clades with high frequency distribution both in East Asia and Siberia, respectively. Therefore, we speculate that in the bottleneck interval, ancient populations with Q1a1a-M120 and N1a2a-F1101 as the main paternal lineages are likely to exist in the form of prehistoric hunter-gatherer populations in the border between the eastern Eurasian steppe and the northern-northeastern China. The drought and harsh natural environment of this area had a great influence on the evolution of the two paternal lineages in later historical periods.” ref

Expansion during the chalcolithic age and bronze age

“During the Chalcolithic age (about 4.5 kya-4.0 kya) in East Asia, copper, cattle and wheat were introduced to the East Asian heartland (Liu and Chen, 2003; Liu, 2004; Liu and Chen, 2017). Archaeologists have suggested that the elements may have spread from northern boundary of China through the Eurasian steppe. However, the demographic context of this important cultural process is very ambiguous. Around 4,000 years ago, the Bronze culture arose in the agro-pastoral region of northwestern China and later spread across East Asia and Southeast Asia. The mixing of the bronze culture of agriculture and animal husbandry with the people of the middle and lower reaches of the Yellow River contributed to the establishment of three dynasties of the Bronze Age in ancient China, namely the Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties (Liu and Chen, 2003; Liu, 2004; Liu and Chen, 2017). As discussed above, ancient populations with Q1a1a-M120 and N1a2a-F1101 as the main paternal lineages may have played a mediating role in the spread of the Copper and Bronze cultures from the eastern Eurasian steppe to the central East Asian region, due to their area of activity in the junction zone. Due to the same reason, these two paternal lines experienced a very significant spread during the Bronze Age, becoming important patrilineal lineages that occupied an upper political position in the Bronze Age, and were frequently detected in the tombs of chiefs and nobles of the time (Zhao et al., 2014; Sun et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2021; Wei et al., 2022).” ref

“An interesting thing is that the significant expansion of N1a2a-F1101 occurred after 3,300 years ago, significantly later than the major expansion period of Q1a1a-M120 (4.2 kya-3 kya, Figure 1). Nevertheless, several downstream clades of Q1a1a-M120, like F4759 and F4689, exhibit simultaneous expansion with N1a2a1a1a1a1-F710 (Sun et al., 2019). Ancient DNA data suggest that these two paternal lineages were concentrated in ancient populations in northwest China, and co-occurred in some tombs (Zhao et al., 2014; Ma et al., 2021; Wei et al., 2022). These ancient DNA studies also suggest that N1a2a-F1101 is likely the paternal lineage of the royal family of the Zhou Dynasty, while Q1a1a-M120 is the main paternal lineage of the Rong-Di populations (Means “Barbarians” in ancient Chinese). Both paternal lineages became the main paternal component of the Chinese group in later generations. In conclusion, we speculate that Q1a1a-M120 and N1a2a-F1101 together constitute the main paternal lineages of the populations that worked as farmers and pastoralists in northwest China during the Copper-Bronze Age. They played a key role in the emergence of bronze culture, early states, and early civilizations in central region of ancient China.” ref

Bronze age globalization in East Asia

“As, discussed in the Introduction section, Bronze age globalization has led to mass replacement and mixing of populations in multiple parts of Eurasia (Allentoft et al., 2015). In East Asia, however, the situation is quite different. Ancient DNA shows that during the Copper-Bronze Age, the populations in the central East Asian region did not experience large-scale replacement, and the genetic components from Indo-Europeans are nearly absent. Based on previous literature and the results of this paper, we suggest that the Gobi Desert on the border between China and Mongolia may have hindered the spread of the Bronze culture and Indo-European-related populations. The hunter-gatherer communities that originally operated in the north and south of the Gobi Desert relied on their familiarity with the environment and long-distance material exchange networks to spread relevant cultural elements as intermediaries.” ref

“In later historical periods, they became the main founders of the bronze culture populations in northwest China. These demographic histories led to the spread of Bronze culture into central East Asia as a form of cultural diffusion, unlike what happened in other parts of Eurasia during the Bronze Age period of globalization. In summary, we constructed a high-resolution phylogeny for Y-chromosome haplogroup N1a2a-F1101, one of main paternal lineages of modern Chinese. We explored the demographic of this paternal haplogroup in the past 9,000 years. We also discussed the activity of ancient populations with this lineage and their role during the appearance of Bronze Age culture, the formation of early state and early civilizations in central region of China. The newly-discovered sub-branches and variants will assist in exploring the formation process of gene pool of Chinese populations and their cultural traditions.” ref

“Eastern hunter-gatherers EHG genetic cluster in two males: one male of Samara (dated to ca. 5650–5550 BCE) carried Y-haplogroup R1b1a1a* and mt-haplogroup U5a1d. The other EHG male, buried in Karelia (dated to ca. 5500-5000 BCE), carried Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mt-haplogroup C1g. The authors of the study suggested that EHGs harbored mixed ancestry from Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) ancestry, which was introduced from Siberia, with a secondary and smaller admixture of European western hunter-gatherers (WHG).” ref